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Author
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Topic: STOP! Don't Pay for it twice people! Current Date/Time:
March 05, 2000 01:01:15
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jbs
Chieftain
From:
Registered: Jun 99
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posted February 22, 2000 16:16
  
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An explanation of my quote "and because of their unpaid work, Activision is making money from their labor."I was the first from my 'Civ group' to buy CTP. Initially I told them not to buy it. After CD's mod and the patches, I said buy it, add these mods and its a good game. I know at least 3 copies of CTP that were bought because of CD's mod. Also, in a lot of posts when someone complains about the payability of CTP, the response is "add CD's and TP's mods and the game is good" I have no additional hard data to support my gut feeling. Your point on the poll got me and basically refutes my opinion that the game is unplayable without these mods. I also could be wrong on the other point. IMO without the mods and/or the ability to create mods I would feel that CTP is a very bad game. With the ability, a modifified game is very fun and worth the price of the game. I don't plan on buying CTP II immediately upon release but if the feedback on the forms is good, I would definitely buy it. The same goes for Civ 3. After my bad experince with BOTF, I would not buy a Hasbro or Micropose game at release (I don't care if Fixas is writing the code), Hasbro is still involved and I don't trust their committment to quality. Again my opinion. |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 22, 2000 17:09
 
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quote:
Originally posted by jbs on 02-22-2000 04:16 PM
I know at least 3 copies of CTP that were bought because of CD's mod.
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seems like you took your personal example and applied it to everyone else. just like supremous takes his personal opinion and presents it as the truth: "CTP was a big fiasco", "as civ2 has captured our souls"....
supremus, what happened to "I" and "in my opinion"? 
quote:
Also, in a lot of posts when someone complains about the payability of CTP, the response is "add CD's and TP's mods and the game is good"
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actually, that's more like "try out CD's and TP's mods, you miht like it with them" 
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Again my opinion.
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very glad to see someone actually using these words |
supremus
Settler
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 23, 2000 13:54
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Mark, When one person asserts something, this person is, of course, giving HIS opinion. But look the following:
1-)... "We've taken a lot of to heart"...
2-)... "More isn't always better"...
3-)... "We bitt of more than we could chew"...
4-)... "The previous product was spread a bit of too thin"...
All of them are not my opinion, but Parker Davis (Activision Senior Producer) opinion and, consequently, Activision's opinion. And if does not describe a fiasco, then I don't know what is the meaning of the word fiasco any more.
Civ 2 souls capturing is not an opinion but a statistic, and (here yes, in my opinion), maybe, the main cause to CTP big fiasco, assuming that the soul captured Civ fans were waiting not less than a magic Civ III and theyr dissapointment was not smaller than Parker Davis's.
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MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 23, 2000 14:24
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quote:
Originally posted by supremus on 02-23-2000 01:54 PM
Mark, When one person asserts something, this person is, of course, giving HIS opinion.
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it never hurts to make it more clear, especially when you use the word "we"...
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1-)... "We've taken a lot of to heart"...
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this is refering to criticism towards the game. where is the wrong here? the wrong would be to ignore criticism
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3-)... "We bitt of more than we could chew"...
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this is refering to the space era part and not to the whole game
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2-)... "More isn't always better"...
4-)... "The previous product was spread a bit of too thin"...
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ah, two quotes that actually refer to the whole game!
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And if does not describe a fiasco, then I don't know what is the meaning of the word fiasco any more.
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the distance between recognizing the problems of a product, and calling it a fiasco is huge |
Harry B. Goode
Chieftain
From: 46045 Oberhausen, Germany
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 24, 2000 04:28
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MarkG, sometimes, IMHO, you cut the threads too much into pieces and rip them off their context to analyze.If you do not have the same opinion, nobody hurts you for that. And you could leave them their opinion not assuming yours is the one and only. |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 24, 2000 05:31
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I dont think I'm the one using quotes out of context
[This message has been edited by MarkG (edited February 24, 2000).] |
wheathin
Prince
From: columbus, oh, usa
Registered: Apr 99
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posted February 24, 2000 12:45
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supremus, a better indication of the validity of the quotes is this: if you asked one of thelead project designers about CtP, would he call it a fiasco? I think not. If the author doens't agree with you, especialy on a subject like this, odds are you are distorting his meaning and taking his words out of context. |
Tilemacho
Warlord
From: Heraklion, Crete , Greece
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted February 24, 2000 15:32
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG on 02-21-2000 06:29 PM
I dont see how exactly. I dont think many people have bought ctp with the intention of adding a mod on it...
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Well I got the game cracked one day before its official release...But didn't like it at all (in fact I was really !!! dissapointed)
Then I came back after about 6 months and read all these thinks about CD's mods and so on. And I desided to buy the game just to be able to play it with mods... I my case bugs were never a real problem (civ 2 crashed much more) but bad playability/balance WAS. In my opinion
[This message has been edited by Tilemacho (edited February 25, 2000).] |
supremus
Settler
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 24, 2000 16:00
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I can image how hard it can be for a company director, to recognize publicaly the product has problems and didn't reach all expectations. If the expectations were low, then I agree the word fiasco is not adequate, but I think the expectations were strongly high and then fiasco is the only word I've got do describe it. |
Harry B. Goode
Chieftain
From: 46045 Oberhausen, Germany
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 25, 2000 03:17
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I wonder how we could discuss about CTP being a "fiasco" or is not. We first should define the word "fiasco". One may think fiasco is the worst thing which can happen, some other may think, fiasco is somehow bad but not truly.But I wonder most, how we could judge CTP being a "fiasco" or not. I don't think it was. It had some problems, right. The technical probs were made up by the patch at 80% or more. The gameplay and some of the features...? But to call it fiasco? No! (IMHO!!!) |
Zinzan
Settler
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 25, 2000 06:25
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Well, i must say, some rather heated debate is going on here!!As for CTP2, I'm undecided. Quite possibly, Activision will come out with a brilliant game (having learnt from the mistakes of their first).
However, there is a niggling thought in the back of my mind - CTP2 will only be brilliant because all the mistakes in the first will not be repeated - my only problem is that we (the consumers) had to pay millions of $$ (obviously I mean all the people combined who bought C:CTP) for this mistake....then we had to make mods to fix it.
For this reason, I will not be buying CTP2, no matter how good it is, ATLEAST until the price has dropped by 50% or so.
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Paul D
Chieftain
From: Canada
Registered: May 99
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posted February 25, 2000 09:46
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You know.. with the regular cut-ins by you Mark, constantly at us for the expression style we use in sharing our opinions, I too have begun to wonder if you're getting some kind of cash for supporting Activision.
So what if a person says "CTP sucks" or as in my original post here "Don't buy CTP 2... you'll be suckered" - why is that something which bothers you so much? Why is it we all have to very explicitly state or begin each comment with a "in my opinion"? If it really bothers you so much, maybe you should just put a new disclaimer atop each and every post that states something like "All posts and replies are the opinion of the postee, not that of Apolyton as a whole, and regardless of how they sound, do no reflect the opinion of every person on the globe." Aren't these forums for free discussion? Free expression of opinion? Or are you asking us to quasi-censor our own opinions? Activision has not shown itself trustworthy in its handling of CTP 1, and thus, they should not be blindly trusted with this new CTP 2. There is NO indicattion as yet that says they are using new code from scratch to make CTP 2, and thus, it may be as buggy as CTP 1. The people who have CTP 1 derserve better treatment for the 500,000 copies in sales we've provided Activision. So far, they have only demonstrated a "take your money and run" attitude. I will not buy CTP 2. I will not buy -any- Activision software in future, there are plenty of other reliable companies with good alternatives. |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 25, 2000 10:19
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Paul D, I've been following ctp since the original announcement in the summer of 98. I've posted hundreds of times about it since then, created a fan site for it, played it for an uncounted number of hours. You simply can't come here and say that if I buy ctp2 I will be a sucker for a second time, and expect not to insult me. You simply can not expect everyone to agree with you(cause that's what you're saying, since according to your post everyone who disagrees with you is a) geting money from activision and b) is one way or another trying to censor you by disagreeing!)Beyond that, on these forums you will find all kinds of people. There are people who like/love smac and dislike/hate ctp, and the opposite. There are people who dislike both games and say that civ2 still rules. And there are people with opinions between these examples. Therefore, presenting your opinion as something accepted by everyone is simply wrong. |
WesW
Prince
From: Florence, Al., USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 26, 2000 01:44
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Of course, you have to remember that Mark and Dan were given advance copies of the game, so they could play and review it. Shrewd move by Activision, or blatant pandering, you decide.
Anyway, Mark and Dan gave it rave reviews, which had a major impact on my decision to buy the game.(as well as others, I am sure.)
Therefore, you *could* think that Mark had commited himself to support of the game, and therefore couldn't give an objective opinion on it.
I am sure that Mark was flattered by Activision's offer, and more so by the presence of their lead programmers on the site here answering questions. Who wouldn't be? However, having seen all the work Mark has put into the site, and the Apolyton Pack, and working with mod designers, I believe his current opinions are indeed his true feelings. (I just could not resist bringing all this back up, though, just to be aggravating. Now you know what it was like for Don and Tom working with me on the AAips. ) |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 26, 2000 06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by WesW on 02-26-2000 01:44 AM
Anyway, Mark and Dan gave it rave reviews
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and I was the first talk about CTP's diplomacy, among other smaller criticisms...
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However, having seen all the work Mark has put into .... the Apolyton Pack
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now that you say it, if I was geting paied by activision, I wouldn't endorse the idea of an apolyton pack and work all these hours on it, no?
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I believe his current opinions are indeed his true feelings.
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huh, my plan worked!
thanks Wes! |
DanQ
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 26, 2000 14:13
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"However, having seen all the work Mark has put into the site"You mean "all of the work Mark AND Dan have put into the site", right?? ----------------
Dan; Apolyton CS |
Patriqvium
Chieftain
From: Espoo, Finland
Registered: Dec 1999
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posted February 26, 2000 14:34
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(semi-quote from Mark: )Amazing! All this moderators' insider discussion coming out to complain each other like never before... and... if I buy CTP2 (very small probability, though) I'll never pay for it twice, only once.
[This message has been edited by Patriqvium (edited February 26, 2000).] |
Imran Siddiqui
Emperor
From: New Brunswick, New Jersey, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 26, 2000 17:42
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Yes Dan, you too...*pets DanQ on the head* Good Dan.. |
Depp
Warlord
From: Luleå, Sweden
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 26, 2000 19:17
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If you don´t know if you are gonna get the game, just wait and see. You´ll know for sure just a few days after the release. Why decide upfront anyway if you don´t have alot of money or get free copies That would be silly.... |
WesW
Prince
From: Florence, Al., USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 27, 2000 01:22
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Hey, Dan, you read the forums? I thought you just did the newsletter, as well as other behind-the-scenes things. |
Paul D
Chieftain
From: Canada
Registered: May 99
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posted February 27, 2000 11:03
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Quite the professional way of twisting my words there Mark. I never, ever, stated in any certain or uncertain terms that:"everyone who disagrees with you is a) geting money from activision and b) is one way or another trying to censor you by disagreeing!)" Those are YOUR words. My complaint was that YOU were jumping on everyone who expressed a negative opinion about the future of CTP 2. I addressed your name specifically, I did not say "everyone who jumps in". Please don't play the word twisting game, its very unbecoming of you. Supremus made it very clear in his explanation that:
"When one person asserts something, this person is, of course, giving HIS opinion." - an explanation I wouldn't think you would need to have been reminded of.
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MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 27, 2000 12:15
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so Paul, when you say "We all got screwed large with the first CTP" you're just giving your personal experience with CTP. You know, not many people use "We" when they talk about themselves... |
Zinzan
Settler
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 28, 2000 01:41
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There you go again Mark, twisting words!!Did you ever think that Paul D might be in the middle of a personality crises and was reffering to himself in the 3rd person? Poor guy, you've probably got him holed up in a mental asylum....he may never recover!! THIS thread, more importantly, may never recover if WE (meaning everyone who has disected someone elses posts) don't quit it with the word games!! |
pauli
Chieftain
From: herndon, va, usa
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted February 28, 2000 02:05
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zinzan, i think that last sentence is the most levelheaded statement in this thread (as an aside, i'd just like to say that historically, the people who refer to themselves as "we" have been monarchs/autocrats of one sort or another. well, everyone here enjoys that role every time they play any civ game... ) in order to try and turn this thread back into a thoughtful debate, i would like to put up a thought: ctp2 is, supposedly, an extension of the ctp codebase. presumably, said codebase was fixed up a bit (with respect to bugs) before the new changes were made. now, one thing that modern games have shown, is that it is beyond the capabilities of any QA department to catch all bugs - there are simply too many different configurations for machines. now, one thing that these forums have done is provided a place where the community - the people with those varied configs, some of whom at least suffer from the bugs that got past QA - can come together and assemble a checklist, so that the developers may squash them (the bugs, not the community ). now, as the game undergoes development, it gets farther from the last version that got community feedback (in this case, 1.2). so, i ask, which would result in the best possible program, and the happiest customers: a game that is based on code for which there is a known (and lengthy) buglist, or a game based on code that has gone through sufficient revisions that almost all bugs have been stamped out? what do you all think? if needbe, i'll try and rephrase the gist of that tomorrow. ------------------
it's just my opinion. can you dig it? |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 28, 2000 04:54
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zinzan, pauli, I hope Paul D comes up with arguments instead of just starting joeking around quote:
Originally posted by pauli on 02-28-2000 02:05 AM
which would result in the best possible program, and the happiest customers: a game that is based on code for which there is a known (and lengthy) buglist, or a game based on code that has gone through sufficient revisions that almost all bugs have been stamped out?
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I think you're giving two wrong choices here.
choice a: a kwown buglist is good, in the sense that the company has recognized the existanse of these bugs. it means nothing if the company doesnt do something to correct them
choice b: again fixing almost all bugs is cool, but if the rest are not indentified one way(fans, public lists) or another(company), we are probably at the same point, having some people complain that the game sucks, etc, etc... a "c" choice would be the use of pre-release demo to indentify bugs QA can't find, before the release, as I describe in my latest column... http://apolyton.net/misc/column/102_essctp2-1.shtml |
supremus
Settler
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted February 28, 2000 13:54
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Well, I didn't know Mark had worked so hard to help CTP with packs, mods, etc. I think it was great and good for all the apolytoners and so I must give him my congratulations. But if it puts you Mark committed to defend (sometimes obsessly) CTP against any attack at the point of consider yoursef insulted, please delegate to anybody else the moderation of this CTP forum. One less CTP involved person coud be less partial. But, please don't consider yourself insulted with this suggestion. Your work here in ACS is very much appreciated and the suggestion is only to preserv you against any misundertanding.P.S. 1)- If I was Activison's owner I would pay for a so great and hard work. (Hey people, come on buying CTP and go to ACS getting all that free of charge stuff and enjoy !). Very convenient for Activision. 2)- My final conclusion in this thread: Wait and see. If yes buy it. |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted February 28, 2000 14:05
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"defend(sometimes obsessly) CTP against any attack at the point of consider yoursef insulted"
criticism on ctp using argument is one thing. saying that everyone who bought it and everyone how will buy ctp2 is a sucker is another "please delegate to anybody else the moderation of this CTP forum"
please, tell me the last time you have seen me closing a thread or even baning someone from here for expressing his opinion on ctp "My final conclusion in this thread: Wait and see. If yes buy it"
are you sure? I think you're a sucker if you say something like that |
TheBirdMan
Chieftain
From: Denmark
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted February 29, 2000 02:40
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Allow a little comment:Most of the "gamers" that post in this tread act to each other like they are members in two rival crusades - or m'be more like some "religious" nutheads! Back to the games - this is where the fun are...... |
wheathin
Prince
From: columbus, oh, usa
Registered: Apr 99
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posted February 29, 2000 14:23
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Good grief supremus. It sounds like anyone who disagrees with you (i.e. that thinks that CtP was an enjoyable game) MUST be a moron or a paid shill. |
supremus
Settler
From:
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted March 01, 2000 15:27
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Huuuu ? Wheathin, Are you trying put words in my mouth ?
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Dr Strangelove
Warlord
From: Forest,VA USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted March 03, 2000 23:23
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Hey Mark!
After noticing the announcements about CTP 2 I decided to dig out CTP and give it another try. I had had many problems with CTP originally, had thought I had fixed them 6 months ago, but by I could not shake the lingering dread of sudden crashing, so I put the game away. Unfortunately the game is back to its old tricks! Not only is it locking up, but after backing out of CTP I have to reboot my system, because no programs willl run unless I shut down first. It appears that my system needs to be purged every time I run this vile stuff. Does anyone know how to induce vomiting in an Intel chip?
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Dr Strangelove
Warlord
From: Forest,VA USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted March 03, 2000 23:33
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Oh, by the way. Someone above, I seem to recall, while defending the popularity of CTP, made the claim that CTP must be OK because it had sold 500,000 copies. I think I'm quoting the right figure. I've got a copy of CGW at my side. Apparently, out of the top 10 selling games of 1999, only 3 sold 500,000 copies or more. Not even Half-Life, Command and Conquer TS, Unreal Tournament, Homeworld, or Age of Kings sold 500,000 copies. The number 10 game sold only 300,000 copies. How is it possible that a game that did not rank in the top 10 in the past 2 years managed to out sell the games that did rank in the top 10? |
MarkG
Apolyton Co-Administrator
From: Greece
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted March 04, 2000 02:57
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game crashes: cant say anything about it, just that on my machine ctp havent crashed for ages...sales: are we talking worldwide or just US?
anyway, to be exact on what that that someone was referring to, these are numbers provided by activision: ctp sold over 500,000 copies sold(225,000 in the US, more than 275,000 in Europe) and smac sold 230,000 in the US |
ghen
King
From: Delaware, USA . . . . . ~I like eggs!~
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted March 04, 2000 17:33
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CTP is a very solid game after the 1.1 update, almost as solid as Starcraft.. I haven't had a crash in eons. Only thing is, with all the modifications it gets sloooww sometimes
And Markos? He's just defending his position like any of the rest of us, just because he's an Admin. doesn't mean he has to be neutral! Hell, if I had the spirit and time, I'd argue the exact same points!
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WesW
Prince
From: Florence, Al., USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted March 05, 2000 01:01
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About the CtP crashes; I finally found out that the problem has something to do with either the mouse or monitor.To solve it, go to start, settings, control panel, system, device manager. Click on mouse, and hit refresh. Repeat for monitor.
This keeps you from having to re-boot. | |
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