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Topic: WONDERS: Managed by Q Cubed |  |
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Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted June 26, 1999 01:44
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Greetings! I am Q Cubed, your Thread Discussion Facilitator. You are now in the Wonders Discussion Thread. I hope the discussion here will prove fruitful for all who participate in it, and give Firaxis a cornucopia of input for Civilization III.======
The Overall aim of this thread:
This thread is dedicated to providing a springboard of ideas and suggestions for the next Firaxis game. Civilization III. Wonders suggestions have come from the original Civilization, Civ 2, SMAC, CTP, and elsewhere. Discussions have ranged from splitting Wonders into World Wonders and Secret Projects to changing the Eurocentric Wonders to a more balanced list. This Thread will provide the ideas, concepts, and names for some of the new Wonders for Civ3. What belongs in this thread:
Anything regarding wonders. What does not belong in this thread:
Anything that has little or nothing to do with wonders. 
====== As of now (17.07.99), an updated summary is up. Click here to access it. ------------------
Q Cubed
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." [This message has been edited by Q Cubed (edited 07-17-1999).] |
Simon
b.02-15-99
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posted June 28, 1999 07:23
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No ideas, just want to say that your summary was great! Easy to read, and very comprehensive.. I was surprised to see that Animal 57 got in there  |
SnowFire
b.02-15-99
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posted June 28, 1999 09:59
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Q: First of all, fantastic summary! You put us all to shame.First of all, stick me in with the "Disagree's" on "No two cities can build the same wonder at the same time." As I said in some other thread, that would make wonder building silly- as soon as I get a tech that allows a wonder, all I have to do is tell some dinky city to start building it, and I have a monopoly on building it. Furthermore, it should still be allowed intra-civ too, and without penalty- otherwise, you'll get the exact same effect in stockpiling caravans (instead of building one Wonder, than switching). However, I agree about making rush-building really expensive. How about you can't RB at all until it's 50% done, the resources from 50-80% each cost 8x the normal rate, 80-90 4x, and 90-100 2x? On "Delayed Availability:" Instead of just time, if the CONCEPTS AND APPLICATIONS idea from the tech thread is used, it also costs money to develop the application for the concept (though perhaps if you wait long enough, the price goes down and eventually you get it for free). Mapmaking would be the concept (standard tech), and trimere and Lighthouse would be applications. On Legalized abortion: "doubles food requirement for population growth, -5% production, +10% science, reduces diplomatic rating with all republic and fundamentalist governments, and celebrations do not increase population." Nah... first of all, this one IS too hot to handle I can assure you, and plus, why would republican government dislike this? Almost all enlightened nations these days guarentee rights like that. And how would this REDUCE production, aside from fewer people? Also, considering all the pregnancies anyway these days... Concerning the Eiffel Tower proposted suggestion- "Should prevent other civilizations from sneak attacking you." Ahh! Why is the tower going to stop my tanks from rolling through Paris? I mean, many wonders don't make sense, but this power is overreaching. I mean, the Great Wall means you can make war, it's just that everyone will hate you since you keep breaking the forced treaties. If you aren't in a democracy/republic, you should be the one who gets to declare war. On the UN: "Nobody could commit atrocities against the builder(s)." See above. I'll commit atrocities against them if I want to. However, the penalties should shoot through the roof, everyone will hate me, and the civ I atrocited against should get a fundamentalist-style attack bonus against me (and only against me). On the world's Busiest Airport: What does that have to do with food? Not much. Instead, I suggest +pro +++trade (since this is an expensive wonder). Rain forests: Um... no offense to the rain forests, but they are actually rather unfertile in terms of industrial production of food. That's why they're getting chopped down- almost all the biomass is in the trees and stuff, not the soil, so after chopping down one part, the farmer has to pick up and move 5 years later and chop down another part. So kill the food bonus, and DEFINITELY kill the production bonus (RF factories?). Instead, give it a science bonus, like the Barrier Reefs. Mines of Potosi- you BUILD those? Whatever happened to the little gold symbol on some mountains (actualy silver in this case)? This is definitely not a wonder, but a randomly seeded trade good. [This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited 06-28-1999).] |
Hugo Rune
b.02-15-99
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posted June 28, 1999 11:06
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About customisable wonders: (I know, I know, This is my special topic. Live with it.) I think your current system with 49(!) Flags is far too cumbersome to be any good. Instead, I suggest a system with statements, ie. You declare 1 or more functions for the wonder. For example:Pyramids, [ADD CIV IMPROVEMENT(1)] (Name, [Action, Where (This city? Global? Your Civ only?), Object]) This would place the nr. 1 improvement (Granary) in each city. Now, that's a very simple example, but consider one of the wonders from SMAC (I don't remember it's name): Something, [IF Economy=Planned THEN MODIFY CIV POLICE=POLICE+2;
IF Economy=Green THEN MODIFY ...] The above method would allow just about anything. The Lighthouse, for example: Lighthouse, [MODIFY CIV MOVEMENT(5,8,9,15,34)=+2;
REMOVE CIV PROPERTY(5-3)] The first statement would add two to the units in the brackets (all sea units (no I don't know the exact numbers...)), while the second statement would remove property flag three from the Trireme unit. Now the whole thing could be made even more simple by using Objects, e.g. CIV Unit.Trireme.Property(3) = 0. ------------------
"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall down an open manhole cover and die."
-Mel Brooks |
eNo
b.02-15-99
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posted June 28, 1999 22:51
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How about something like a temporary wonder that cost something between base facilities but less than a full-blown wonder. Something that needs to be "renewed", like a space station that has to be replaced every 20 years. I guess that would make it so other countries would be able to build their own version too but only one of them. |
eNo
b.02-15-99
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posted June 30, 1999 22:25
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Think of MIR, it's too expensive to be built by every country but does not last forever. The ISS is basically replacing MIR so that would be the "renewal". I think these type of Temporary Wonders would give the building nation a base effect, and allow other nations to "rent" these effects, similar to NASA using MIR. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 01, 1999 14:30
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Well, Simon, I did put it into radical /other suggestions since I didn't quite know what to make of it. Perhaps I should go to the site and read up on it.
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SnowFire:
thanks for the compliment, but I should say thank you to you too, esp. since you gave me the idea for the Table of Contents with the Intrapage links at apolyton.net.
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Hugo:
Hmm...your system would prolly work better, since mine was awfully cumbersome.
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eNo:
ok. I understand what it is now. do you have an other ideas of what else could be renewable?
======
all comments thus far have been added to the summary (30.06.1999)------------------
Q Cubed
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance."
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eNo
b.02-15-99
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posted July 03, 1999 01:25
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Unfortunately not. I don't think nations did this sort of renting of each other's resources until this century.Maybe an especically competent intelligence/operatives agency could be rented. Rent-a-007 kind of thing. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 03, 1999 13:01
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lol. I can imagine it now:"Bond. James Bond. Basic price: 1 million dollars, a shaken martini, and a voluptuous female companion. Contact M for the contract." But seriously, I'll write in that you think the CtP wonder "The Agency" could also be rented out. I know that it's not exactly the same thing, but I'm thinking that counterintelligence could be rented out somewhat. Heck, the FBI has a branch in Russia... ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
SnowFire
b.02-15-99
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posted July 03, 1999 17:42
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Hey, it's happened. The Japanese wanted good info on Pearl Harbor, so they set up a rent-a-spy thing with Germany, and a family living on Oahu actually watched the naval base very carefully, wrote down patrol schedules, got their little boy a tour of a battleship, all these other flagrant breaches of security that would have set off a million red flags (as well as racism kicking in) if a Japanese spy had attempted to do that. In any case, the Japanese knew a loooot about Pearl Harbor when they attacked. Still attacked at the wrong time, though."I fear we have awakend a sleeping giant, and filled him with terrible resolve." -Admiral Yamamoto, who opposed the war, after the attack missed the cariers. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 08, 1999 22:32
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From johnny punkrock at SidGames, modified a bit:IF "Internet" = Wonder
THEN ++Corruption ++Science ++Economy ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
DickK
b.02-15-99
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posted July 09, 1999 12:52
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Some of this long post is a rehash of stuff many of you have thought of already, but it seemed important to at least summarize my thoughts so you'd understand where I'm coming from, so bear with me if I seem to state the obvious. I've read the summary and all the ideas in this thread-really like some of them--but something has been bothering me about this. Mostly I'd decided that wonders played too big a role in the game. I thought about eliminating them entirely but that's a bad idea because they do add to the fun of the game and the idea is so much a part of this kind of game that they have to be here. Besides, there were real WoW's, so Civ3 needs them, too.Okay, we're going to have WoW's, but what should they do and how do we keep them from dominating the game? I started thinking about the real ones. Why were they built and what impact did they have on real civs and history? I came up with a long list of reasons which mainly came down to two: impress other nations/civs or your own populace; or meet some practical need which just turned out to be impressive. The one constant for all of them was that it was something impressive. Another important issue seems to me that many were specifically built to help unite the civ's populace while being built as well as be impressive afterwards. So, what does that mean for the game? To me, it means that most, if not all, WoW's should have multiple effects: a practical bonus, a morale/prestige boost and a trade boost (tourism). To reflect the unifying effect that most had, they should have an internal morale boost tied to them, perhaps even while being built. Most also have had the effect of boosting the civ/national prestige in the world, so there should be an impact in the diplomatic area, mainly to make the builder seem stronger--making some others more afraid of you, some are impressed (positive attitude shift) and some are jealous (negative attitude shift). However, both the internal and external attitude effects should be of short duration (50-500 years, varying with the WoW). If morale and/or prestige bonuses are also the wonder's practical bonus, then this results in a high initial bonus with a somewhat lower long term bonus for its duration. Most if not all, should expire or greatly reduce in function over time. Expiration can be tied to technology, other WoW's, or specific time periods. The longest range bonus, which can be permanent for some, is the trade bonus reflecting the fact that physical WoW's often end up being tourist attractions. Other than this (minor) trade bonus, any WoW which gives a bonus which doesn't expire can then built a second time with the effect of canceling the first one's bonus. By decreasing the long term effects of the WoW's we can allow larger bonuses over a short period. This should also reduce the chance that we end up with a "game breaker" WoW. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 09, 1999 14:35
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Good points.These will be added to the summary as soon as I get a chance (at Duke). I like the morale and diplomatic bonus/negatives. And, I like the idea of a permanent trade boost (for some) instead of complete obsolescence. Well, I'll be back with more comments in a little bit. ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
Sir Edgar
b.02-15-99
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posted July 14, 1999 00:42
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A few thoughts about Wonders of the World:1. Wonders should only be destroyed if the invading civ wants to destroy it or if a really experienced (and lucky!) spy does. 2. Wonders should require specific resources. For example, Adam Smith's Trading Company should require gold. 3. Some ideas for wonders (I'm sure some have been repeated): Golden Gate Bridge, Big Ben, The Pentagon or The Kremlin, Fort Knox, The Opera House, Empire State Building, Forbidden City, Taj Mahal, the Sphinx, the Louvre, Arc de Triomphe, Hollywood sign, Brandenburg Gate, and Amnesty International. Thanks!
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Titleist 4 Professional
b.02-15-99
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posted July 14, 1999 12:05
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Wonders should be visible on the map. If you build the Pyramids at Cairo, for instance, they should appear in one of the adjacent squares as terrain. They would still be controlled only by city capture, though. |
EnochF
b.02-15-99
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posted July 15, 1999 16:14
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Q: I just took a look at the Wonders summary in the Firaxis list. <jaw drops> I'm speechless. That's amazing. I mean, I'm fairly proud of the List we've done at Apolyton, but yours is so thorough. Keep it up! |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 17, 1999 13:49
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thanks, enochf. most of it was sprouted from yours, so i have given you credit.anyway, sir edgar:
your comments are pretty much listed somewhere or another, but if you don't see a specific one, it's either because i haven't put it in yet, or it's been edited out due to redundance. do you have any extra suggestions regarding those, tho? it'd be helpful, since we don't have a fully workable system with those yet. in any case, i'll try to repost the most recent summary as soon as i can find a IBM compatible comp here at Duke. <sigh> blasted thing won't read IBM disks, so i have the summary, but i can't post it. Curses! ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 17, 1999 14:01
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found an IBM Comp:You can now see the updated summary here:
WONDERS: Summary (17.07.1999). ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
MasterSwitch
b.02-15-99
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posted July 17, 1999 17:47
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It would be neat if some Wonders could be visible on the map, such as the Great Wall. |
Sir Edgar
b.02-15-99
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posted July 20, 1999 18:31
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Perhaps Wonders of the World can be optional? After all, they don't really do the things that Civ I or II says they do. |
SnowFire
b.02-15-99
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posted July 21, 1999 08:38
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MasterSwitch: Check the summary again, it's already in there.Sir Edgar: The problem with that is it changes the balance of the game... perhaps something to put in the rules.txt files, but I'm not sure if the AI could adapt to a no-Wonders sitaution. |
n.c.
b.02-15-99
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posted July 21, 1999 11:14
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Snowfire: the way most good players play the AI has to adapt to a no-wonders situation (for them, that is), or at least no wonders that are worth damn. Taking out the wonders would allow the AI to stop wasting time building the Eiffel Tower in three cities.As for edting the Rules.txt, given my recent experience (see post in Customisation) I am dubious about whether that is a viable option. I think there should be a screen that allow you to pick which wonders you want and their strength (with corresponding cost) or have a workable Rules.txt. |
senowen
b.02-15-99
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posted July 21, 1999 11:34
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I just now looked at your summary. I was great and very easy to tell who thinks what. One of the problems I'm having is that a true wonder is something that in later years people think "wow, how did they do it, how did they do this with only the resources available to them". Many of the new wonders do not qualify for true wonder status. Another thing is that with many more wonders than civII I'm afraid the game will rely too much on wonders and not enough on game play. I think the way to solve this is to make all the minor wonders into a list of unique items. These items could only be built once and give small bonuses to your city. They would of course cost less than a wonder to build and could have prerequisites. For example if you built the Ziggarut at Ur it would count as a temple but would have a bonus, like make an extra citizen content and add a trade bonus because a city with a unique item will always bring in tourists, in any age. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted July 21, 1999 19:36
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senowen:
about your suggestion:
how about multistage wonders?for the bottom rank, there are the World's Greatest, conferring certain bonuses regarding to their function. for the next, unique miniwonders, like those you suggested. for the third, the National Secret Projects...explained in the summary as well. for the highest, the Wonders.
====== to those who dislike wonders and want them taken out: perhaps we could grade the wonders in a manner like how techs are graded, esp. to how an AI regards them...like how an AI will be happier if you give them Gunpowerder than if you give them, say, Future Technology with no benefit... anyway, i'll post these suggestions soon. ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
n.c.
b.02-15-99
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posted July 22, 1999 09:11
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It's not that I don't like the Wonders, I just want the option of micromanaging 1) which ones exist in the game 2) their duration 3) their cost and, if possible, 4) their effect. All of this without having to edit Rules.txt, or have that file actually be editable/understandable.Also, I would like the option of making the wonders have maintentance costs. The Hoover Dam isn't free. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted August 01, 1999 12:12
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n.c.hmm......those reasons are well grounded, esp. the one about wonder maintenance. those suggestions that aren't up yet'll be put up soon, since i just got back from a break and am working on the updated list. ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted August 03, 1999 18:32
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I picked this up from other threads.
------
ember
Wonder: Iron Curtain. Prevents all between civ emmigration. (for gameplay all cities count as average happiness level)------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted August 14, 1999 21:42
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<---------Bump!UP this goes. ======
new wonder:
raingoon
The Julian Simon's Charts & Graphs Wonder to reduce the cost of founding a new city, if the increased cost of building a new city is incorporated. ------------------
Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders "Logic must dictate my stance." |
LOGO
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 1999 22:42
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I think the idea of having two levels of wonders and one secret project is good buy maybe the should be a fourth. Call it social projects, they would be things like Telivision, Internet, Computers, and Space Exploration. The first Civilization to reach television for example would natualy be the center of television in the world, like US and Hollywood. Therefore there would be a large bonus for the Civ. that reaches it first, but the projects would all be very specialized gains that some Civs don't really care about and may not even want. So, after the second or third Civilization achieves it, it will loose even more gains but will significantly lower in price. So it may be in your best interest to wait for the price to come down or it might help your Civ. hugely to be the first one to discover it. This will add a new dimension to the system of wonders. |
Q Cubed
b.02-15-99
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posted August 21, 1999 23:19
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LOGO, that's one of the freshest idea's that i've seen in a long time.Social Wonders, you say? Perhaps they could be an 'application' to the discovery of a certain technology, i.e. the Television advance would lead to a TV Studios Social Project or what not as an application. Or an application of Rocketry would lead to the Space Exploration Social Project. Any thoughts? |
eNo
b.02-15-99
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posted October 16, 1999 22:15
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BUMP! (mainly)But didn't somebody mention a Y2K Bug Fix Wonder? |
Stryker North
b.02-15-99
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posted October 17, 1999 00:52
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I dont know if anyone said this yet, if so sorry.When building wonders it should be an entire civilization effort. You choose the city where it is based, then you funnel resources into it. This would sadly probably involve a cumbersome method of allocating resources. It could be done something like this (I suppose) At each city you remove workers from the land, but instead of making them entertainers, scientists, or tax collecters they become craftsmen/artisans/whatever and they provide nothing to the city they are in (but they still eat its food) but they help the wonder to completion. ------------------
The first rule of war: You always attack! The best defence is to have your opponent lying bleeding on the ground. --Colbey Calistinsson | |
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