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I'm going to try to answer everyone's question, etc. in this one post and I may not do a very god job of it, so please bear with me...

Geoff: You're suggestion that when a fighter plane gets shot down, it walks around as a basic infantry unit? ... the other interpretation I can see is that it's taxing along the ground... but... why would it do that, and why would you want it to?

I was suggesting this as another way to keep your plane from dying because of running out of fuel. Maybe it can't go into jungle, forest, etc.

n.c.:As for the states, I don't understand. The combat summary discusses ideas that may be similar. perhaps it would help if you related your ideas to that.

The way I thought this might work was that each state for a unit has a completely different set of characteristics and it acts like different units (with the same # of hitpoints, etc.) that can change (almost) freely between the two states. The fighter example represents whether the plane is flying, which uses fuel or taxiing on the ground (which uses significantly less fuel). The MASH unit would either be set up as a mobile hospital or packed up and moving elsewhere.

DickK: I won't repeat what you said because it is immediately above this post and rather long.

I like the ideas of having non-military uses for them too, but I had originally thought for them to act like a city with a barracks (Units healed completely spending a turn there) while they are set up, which would let you not send your units on a long trek to a city to get healed.

everyone: I wasn't necessecarily suggesting just those two units, but as examples of some units that could use this idea. CivII already has something like this (called fortification). Fortifying units could just be changing them to a fortified state, which has different effects on different units (or the same effect on all units).

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"We have harnessed the power of lightning and used it to make sand think." -- Unknown

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I think there should be two types of missiles: the one we all know and love from Civ2, with a certain, not very big range, and an intercontinental missile, wich can go anywhere on the map. Both types could be used for both cruies missiles and nukes, but the latter would be pretty expensive, so it would be bit of a waste to use it as a cruise missile.
No. 1 would be a unit like in Civ2, and could be stationed in subs, bombers, cities and carriers. The other one would need silos, wich could be built in cities as an improvement (a city could have as many as you'd like) and in the countryside, paid by your public works account. The silos would be invisible, also to enemy units passing over it. I also think the latter should need one turn to warmup, before it could be fired. Enemy spy sattelites could see this. The enemy would then be told something like "the [civ]'s is warming up x nuklear missiles" x being the number. This would allow the enemy to warm up his own nukes. The last missile type would require a certain advance like Intercontinental ballistic missiles.

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ember: An entire squadron running out of fuel at the same spot, and all succesfully crash landing does sound a bit ridicoulous.

Changing states of a unit would not happen automatically and may cost movement points. Landing aircraft might take 4 movement points and a grassland, plains, desert, or tundra to land on or move on.

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"We have harnessed the power of lightning and used it to make sand think." -- Unknown

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"Fascinating" -- Mr. Spock

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"XYZZY" -- random adventurers in the Colossal Cave

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This may also fit under the "Radical Ideas" thread.

I agree that a Doomsday Device would make a good addition to CivIII. In the early sixties the Soviet Union flirted with the idea of a doomsday device that would exist in the form of a naval vessel that is itself a giant nuclear bomb (IIRC about 500 to 1000 mega-tons or enough to kill all life on Earth). This vessel would have recieved a constant string of telemetry from Moscow, and if this data was interrupted, the vessel would assume that Moscow had been destroyed by an enemy attack, and would then detonate itself, eliminating both sides.

So, how could this apply to CivIII:
The doomsday device would exist in the form of a naval unit that costs as much as a wonder to build. Each civilization would be limited to building one of these units (two at the very most, or more only under special circumstances (most advanced tech, possession of the Manhattan Project or equivalent wonder), after all, who needs a dozen doomsday devices?). In the case another civilation would destroy (or occupy) the capital of a civilation with the device, it would be activated, ending the game (with some point penalty applied to both sides in the conflict). In order to possess this weapon, one's civilization would be required to HAVE a capital city, thus, an attack against your capital city that destroys your capitol/palace would also set off the device.

Being a Naval vessel, this weapon could be destroyed by another civilization without destroying all terrestrial life. In such a case a smaller explosion could occur, perhape on the scale of SMAC's Fusion PlanetBuster MKII. This would make one weary of destroying this weapon if it was too close to one's own cities, or a cluster of units.

Industrial sabbotage against the capital city would also put the weapon at risk of being activated. In such a case the game would end, and the civilization committing the sabotage would take the entire hit against their score for having ended the world.

If a civilation with a doomsday device would sell thier palace, the device would also cease to exist.

The device may have a self destruct option, which would end the game, and give the most massive score deduction possible in the game.

Conclusions:
In past Civ games diplomatic sessions would often begin with a message along the line of "Our Words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS", but more often then not, this was only a bluff, and even in the case of nulclear war, two evenly matched opponents would only do limited damage to each other, doomsday was never really a threat. But, with a doomsday device, the threat of nuclear armageddon becomes a reality.

n.c.: I hate to belabour my point, and you may have already gotten it and just disagree (which is fine) but, assuming no design workshop, what I'm suggesting is that the mounted units be different for different civilizations, or at least cities. The actual number could stay the same by getting rid of/combining some of the units currently in Civ2.

on the Doomsday device: I think it would be cool for the doomsday device, rather than destroying the world, to just kill most of the people, destroy all the units, and cover the whole place in radioactive pollution. It's almost a fate worse than ending the game. It could also destroy all embassies and take away techs at random (so you could still make a stealth fighter, maybe, but be clueless as to tanks or marketplaces. But don't let anybody research anything they don't have the entire tree to back up) It would be a cool, post-apocalyptic scenario, where the end of the game is delayed thousands of years. It could even be used by a serious underdog to try to even things out when nothing else seems to work... Or, if the U.N. is present, it could automatically build the Unity, with nobody getting the bonus score. If this sort of post apocalypse is allowed, everybody should get a 1 turn warning that the Doomsday Device is about to go off, so they can rush build their spaceship (or deep mineshafts, to save 1 extra population per city and some tech... Maybe the "Dr. Strangelove" wonder could act as a mineshaft in every city... nevermind)

Geoff: While I appreciate the backup, it could STILL be done badly. The chasses we'd end up with would be: (approximately)

Infantry
Mounted
Small Wooden Boat
Large Wooden Boat
Small Metal Boat
Large Metal Boat
Automated (is this too big a generalization for tanks, SAMs, freight, artillery, etc?)
Prop Plane
Jet Plane
Helicopter

More could be added, but I think that covers everything, with the possible exception of chariots and towed artillery such as cannons. These could be combined into a single chassis, or used as an weapon added to mounted or automated units... I don't know.

In a post apocalyptic scenario all civilizations should be greatly handicapped, for example, the radioactive cloud could prevent any air travel. All naval vessels could have a movement penalty placed on them, and land units would loose hit points as they travel through radioactive regions.

At the same time, if your civilization depends on solar power, you would be greatly weakened.

I do, however, feel that no warning should be allowed. IRL the only warning we'd have of a nuclear attack would be at most 60 minutes, and our only really preventive measures are driven by paranoia.

Also, the Doomsday Device is sort of pathetic if it will only go off if your capital city is hit. In Civ, your capital really just isn't as important as in RL. Maybe if the penalties for a captured capital were higher, it would be more useful, but really, just because an AI had a Doomsday Device wouldn't mean I wouldn't attack them, I'd just stay away from their capital city. Instead, I'd suggest that you can build as many Doomsday Devices as you like, and that there be both a naval version and a ground version. A Doomsday Device is triggered by either a nuclear event within the radius of the supporting city, a nuclear event within the sight distance of the Device, or the capture or destruction of the supporting city. Thus, in order to actually safeguard your civilization with Doomsday Devices, you have to set yourself up for massive obliteration if one goes off anywhere in the world.
To balance the fact that there are SO many, make each one less powerful. When a Doomsday Device goes off, it acts, as mentioned, as a big nuclear warhead, plus dropping fallout randomly over the world (but not too much; 100-500 squares per Device. It sounds like a lot, but a world has a LOT of squares.) If there are wind patterns, these could effect the fallout pattern.

So, here is what actually happens: In order to safeguard your civilization, you build a Doomsday Device in each major city, and let the world know. The fact that you find this to be a necessity implies that you have enemies in the nuclear arms race; they follow suit.
The Doomsday Devices are most devastating at ground zero, so you send tham away from your cities, either into an interior desert or out into the ocean (or, if you're particularly viscious, near an enemy city. Allow spies to destroy Doomsday devices with only a chance to set them off. Now THERE's one to spend your 007 on.) This results, most likely, in the Doomsday Devices being grouped together.
Something goes wrong. Somebody didn't pay attention to the warnings, or miscalculated the location of a Device, and did something to set one off. It goes, taking 200ish squares of the map with it. Most likely, ONE of those squares will be withing the radius of another Device or it's supporting city, which is for sure if the Devices were grouped... Etc.

or:

Doomsday devices can't see the cause of a nuclear blast. They also respond to meltdowns. If you have a Doomsday Device and a Nuclear Plant in the same city, and fall into Civil Disorder, and the Plant goes, so does the world.

or:

No one on your planet is really desperate enough to build a network of devices designed to wipe out the planet... But somebody builds a Nuclear Bomber, and everyone else has to follow suit, and then somebody invets an ICBM, so everyone has to follow, and then the next thing you know, there are hundreds. Let ICBMs be pre-targeted, so that they can be triggered by the detected launch of another ICBM. Somebody pushes the button. Why? Maybe allow the Rogue General idea, as in Dr. Strangelove, or make AIs that see themselves about to be conquered by conventional means desperate enough to take the plunge and hope they come out on top... For that matter, a civilization with good SDI defense in every city that underestimates the political implications. Whatever. Kaboom. No Doomsday Device required. Make normal Nuclear Weapons also cause Fallout, so targeted areas won't be the only places to go, but make the Fallout less widespread than from a Doomsday Device.

I'm not sure if this whole Doomsday Device/Apocalypse discussion actually belongs in the Units thread... Anybody have any ideas as to where to move it, or is it fine here?

Summing up, the doomsday device is a really nasty thing, that if you start playing with one, you would have a diplomatic edge to try to avoid war, but if war would start, the entire world is screwed (as in RL).

Why not a more specific unit to exchange research points between cities? It would be a messenger until horseback riding is discovered, than a faster moving "pony express" unit, and finally something abstracted under the heading of "telecommunications." Caravans could be remade to be just luxury trade, and a third unit would be invented for moving money around city to city.

The benefit of this would be that, whereas capturing a caravn now yields nothing to the captor, these units could now yield something specific in return.

UP this goes.

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I like that last idea, Gordon...a bit unhappy, though, if those conditions ever happened....

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Q Cubed
Renaissance Q • Q-of-all-trades
Thread Discussion Facilitator for Wonders

Every city should have storage points, that could be increased with facilities (granary for food, arsenal for ammo, warehouse for both, oil depots,...). Units should be supported from the nearest city, not for the city where they were recruited. Supply bases could also be constructed. The number of turns they need to resupply depends on the distance to the nearest city (decreased by roads) and the transport technology (or transport points if implemented) of your civ. If a city canīt resupply all the units near to it, other cities (from closer to farest) would supply from their storages, but as they are far, more turns would be needed. Cities and bases can request/deliver storages (Food, ammo , fuel) from others, and they can also be bought/granted/sell from/to other civs.

Every city should have storage points, that can be increased with city improvements (granary for food, arsenal for ammo, warehouse for both, oil depots,...).

Units should be supplied from the nearest city, not from their home city. Supply bases could also be constructed. Supplies (food, ammo and fuel) would take a number of turns to be delivered, depending on distance, roads and transport technology. If the nearest city dont have enough supplies to resupply an unit, others cities would do it (in order of distance, from closest to farest).

When you select an unit, a supply line from the unit to the supplying city would be visible. The unit could have 3 colors:
-Green if the unit can be resupplied in 1 turn.
-Yellow if the unit needs more than 1 turn to be resuplied.
-Red if the unit canīt be supplied cause is so far, cause you have no supplies to deliver or cause the line if interrupted by the presence of an enemy unit or other causes.

Every city should have storage points, that can be increased with city improvements (granary for food, arsenal for ammo, warehouse for both, oil depots,...).

Units should be supplied from the nearest city, not from their home city. Supply bases could also be constructed. Supplies (food, ammo and fuel) would take a number of turns to be delivered, depending on distance, roads and transport technology. If the nearest city dont have enough supplies to resupply an unit, others cities would do it (in order of distance, from closest to farest).

When you select an unit, a supply line from the unit to the supplying city would be visible. The unit could have 3 colors:
-Green if the unit can be resupplied in 1 turn.
-Yellow if the unit needs more than 1 turn to be resuplied.
-Red if the unit canīt be supplied cause is so far, cause you have no supplies to deliver or cause the line if interrupted by the presence of an enemy unit or other causes.

I would like to be able to group units into a common entity that would attack/defend/move in unison with each other.

In civ we have been building separate units of Archers, Phalanxes, Legions, etc. and in the attempt to get more accurate, massing units into armies is the plan. Why not revamp the very concept of the unit? Each unit will be made up of 1000 men (or women), and the compostion of that army is controlled by percentages of the military technology availible. Each unit will be designed in the unit workshop. Of course, unique units like SEAL Teams will be of a lower number and have different %'s.

Example 1:

45% Legion
45% Cavalry
10% Phalanx

Example 2:

30% Tanks
30% Infantry
5% M.A.S.H.
20% Howitzer
15% Jet Fighters

Thus the introduction of new weapons could be done slowly, as that technology got better. Thus as the gun was invented and developed, its part in an army would increase over time and units of different civs would be unique.

SUMMARY STATEMENT:
Each unit will be an army composed of 1000 soldiers whos actual compositon will be designed in a unit workshop and have a maximum of 20 different technological sub-units (archers, cavalry, etc.

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"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."
-Qui-Gon Jinn