I build more horsemen than any other unit save warriors (leaving the diplomatic corps, camels and settlers to one side).

If I'm going to stay in Monarchy for a while I find they pack as much punch as I need for defending against A1 units and at just 20 shields they are way cheap. They can kill off the chariots and ellies you like plus barb archers. They are not far short of an even money chance against a plalanx on flatland.

They do have trouble with legions and, later on, with knights. So they need to be used in conjunction with forts on good defensive terrain with a phalanx or pikeman or two in attendance.

Destroyers are fast and have a long line of sight. They roll back the last vestiges of the fog of war well and I like to convoy my transports with them.

quote: I have a sort of feeling that there should be a good use for a helicopter. But I haven't found it. So I'll say that one.

Trolling around the globe in a copter, searching for empty cities or units to pick off may be fun, but they are not very useful from a realistic standpoint..........That is unless you need to occupy a city that is behind terrain that normal troops cant cross............

As Drake says, helicopters can be useful in certain situations. They make good support units to clean up attack zones, tho - pick off partisans, take out the primary defender behind walls, and such.

Destroyers are worthless - cruisers are only turns away, ironclads can usually sink them.

Legions are a piece of garbage though.

quote: Originally posted by drake on 05-01-2001 11:55 AM I'm gonna put destroyers on my useless list. Their attack at the time they usually come around is in-adequate, as crusiers and battelships are usaually right around the corner. I guess they could be used for watching a coastline, but not much else. Never build the useless hunks of metal.

I know what you mean about them, but I still end up with a bunch of Destroyers, anyway, when Leo's Workshop (A "must have" on my list of wonders) upgrades my Ironclads. What edit in the Rules would be necessary to either have Leo's stop at Ironclads, or allow it to upgrade Destroyers to Cruisers?

Anyway, if the navies of the rival civs are advanced enough to be a threat to destroyers, I send my destroyers to cities with port facilities to scrap them to help build vet cruisers or vet battleships, when I have access to those technologies.

Got some wierd battles with Cavalry and Armour (and maybe an Artillery or Howitzer), supported by maybe a fighter or bomber, attacking walled cities with Phalanxes, Crusaders, and Musketeers, occasionally catching an ironclad or destroyer in port. It seems like the AI doesn't scrap obsolete units to help build more up to date units when it doesn't have Leo's.

Legions i never build .... i will bribe barb one though

aircraft carriers...... they may have changed the way we fight but in civ they are virtually useless as the ai will never build them

partisans...... please i can use another unit to ignore zone of control....

That being said, my nominee for useless unit is the partisan (useless to build, of course; I love the NON partisan). By the time you get it, you should be able to build stronger offensive units, stronger defensive units, and negotiate zones of control in other ways. The one circumstance in which it could be useful seems so specific (trying to move through a mountain range filled with other civs' units) that it hardly seems to qualify an a use. In second place is the legion, for much the same reason: everything it can do, another contemporary unit can do better.

Even if your legion is unlucky and loses he is virtually certain to leave the barb accompanying the chief well in the red so you can safely allow another unit to be attacked and then pick the chief as before. If you keep the legion this represents a healthy profit and if you don't, 150 gold still leaves you ahead (and secure).

I'll also build a couple of legions when I find one of the warlike civs is a close neighbour and I don't manage to pen them in successfully. All out early attack is sometimes then the only game in town. The combination of legion, catapult and settler is effective when the enemy is close at hand.

I must see if I can profit from the comments made on helicopters.

Start using an explorer to tip huts with and I predict you'll subsequently build one early in every game with a sizeable map.

quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia on 05-02-2001 03:44 PM I have never found a satisfactory use for Marines.

Marines have both good offense and defense, and I use them for defense before I get Mobile Infantry. They can sit inside a city (or fortress) and take punishment, and if there are enemies at the gate, then counterattack from within the city or fortress. Plus the animation in ToT and assault rifle noise is pretty cool when Marines attack.

Fanatics - I can't believe you guys think these are useless! I don't play fundy anymore, but when I did I loved them: same offense/defense as rifleman for 1/3 the cost, plus you don't have to support them. What's not to like?

Marines - Recently, I finally found a use for these guys. I was invading a series of small land masses in an era before flight or automobile (hence no battleships), but I had amphibious warfare. I had been invading with vet cavalry, but every time I did a number of them would be left out in the open and slaughtered by partisans or troops from a neighboring city afterwards. But with marines, I could attack straight from the transport and, once the city was taken, move the transport in to create a city full of defenders (effectively giving marines two moves, one to attack the city and one to enter it!). It really was very effective.

quote: Originally posted by Mixam on 05-03-2001 02:56 AM My rule of thumb is only attack with a frigate if it is a vet.

Am I right in thinking that only someone with the Lighthouse is going to have vet frigates with any regularity? Is there sny other way (aside from surviving battle) to get vet ships at that stage?

The other thing that I find annoying about frigates is that, by the time I get magnetism, I'm in democracy, so frigates become a source of unhappiness. Galleons are preferable for that reason, too.

quote: I like fanatics too. Nice and cheap for their effectiveness. And they are good for stepwise rushbuilding. You can avoid researching conscription and fundamentalism if you get the SOL which is nice to do.

Actually, I don't think that's so. You have to research fundy, not just switch into it via the SoL, in order to get fanatics, just like you have to research communism, not just switch into it, in order to be able to build police stations and the UN.

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 05-03-2001 05:03 AM Actually, I don't think that's so. You have to research fundy, not just switch into it via the SoL, in order to get fanatics, just like you have to research communism, not just switch into it, in order to be able to build police stations and the UN.

I just checked and you are right on this and dammit you need conscription for fundy too.

As for getting vet frigates yes you would either need the lighthouse or would have to kill some units on the way along the coast. Port facilities are a while away yet.

To make an AC useful, i need a couple of bombers to pack offensive punch. Then i need defense against air (fighters or Aegis cruiser) against subs (destroyers or aegis to detect em, or fighters on regular patrol) and protection against surface ships (Battleship)

Now this is all quite realistic - an AC SHOULD have a full complement of planes and a full escort task force

but in the slow relative ship movement world of civ, assembling such a task force is time consuming and frustrating. Theres always an easier way to get the job done.

quote: Am I right in thinking that only someone with the Lighthouse is going to have vet frigates with any regularity? Is there sny other way (aside from surviving battle) to get vet ships at that stage?

Lighthouse won't do it since it expires with Magnetism - the same advance that allows the building of Frigates. You have to survive a battle and be lucky to get vet Frigates. I guess with Sun Tzu you could eliminate the luck factor. Too much trouble IMHO. Concentrate on ground units or wait for better ships.

Marines have always been useless to me. If you bring along a couple Engineers and Alpines, you can get by with using Cavalry for attacks. Keeps you from having to research Amphibious Warfare.

Chariots
Elephants
Legions
Explorers
Destroyers
Helicopters