Green horse versus green phallanx on flatland. Six sneak attacks and six attacks when already at war.

The outcome for the sneak attacks was 3 horse victories, two victors near dead and one into the yellow, 3 phallanx victories, two victors near dead and the third into the red.

The outcome of the honourable attacks was 2 horse victories, one left in the green, the other into the yellow, four phallanx victories, one near dead, two hardly scratched and one into the yellow.

While clearly far from conclusive, the fact that the sneak attack battles were by far the bloodier seems to me to support the notion that there is indeed an attack bonus for a sneak attack.

And, as these were equal battles, the fact that the defender has benefit of the draw ought to produce a decent margin for the defending phallanxes. Not so in the (admitedly tiny number) of sneak attack cases.

That's good news, because I'm gathering an invasion force to take on the mighty Carthaginian Empire at king level. They control *all* of Africa, Europe and the rest of Eurasia having smashed all the civilizations over there. They have over 100 armored divisions, 85 bomber squadrons ... **sigh** this shall be a war for control of planet Earth!!!

A surprise attack that offers an advantage will definitely pay off in this case. And if not, I'm sure Matriarch Dido will present to you my battered, bloodied remains. I will, of course, haunt you EST.

Well, I usually prefer play to testing and only did my short test because I had posted a couple of times as though the sneak attack bonus was an established fact but then realised it was, as far as I then knew anyway, speculative.

But your offer is generous and out of respect for the excellent work you have done on the subject of combat I will keep my lab open and let you know what I find. Do you need anything more than the brief info in my short test? I wonder, for example, whether there is some way of arriving at the number of hit points left to the victor? All I did in the brief test was to record the colour(green/yellow/red) with a comment if the victor was hardly scratched or nearly dead.

If time and patience holds up I'll try breaking a truce as well as breaking a full peace treaty to see if the bonus applies to both or not.

CYBERAmazon

Don't get too carried away with this. I'm pretty well certain that the bonus is enjoyed just by the unit whose attack breaks the peace, not by all the units which subsequently also attack during the turn concerned.

That is not to say, however, that there aren't occasions when you can get multiple opportunities. If you attack and are successful the A1 will often sue for peace. So accept and then, in the same turn, immediately attack again. This is another sneak attack attracting the bonus. In my experience the A1 doesn't learn any lessons from this and will soon be suing for peace yet again. It does so particularly often after losing a city.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 04-23-2001 06:39 AM Marquis ...I will keep my lab open and let you know what I find. Do you need anything more than the brief info in my short test? I wonder, for example, whether there is some way of arriving at the number of hit points left to the victor? All I did in the brief test was to record the colour(green/yellow/red) with a comment if the victor was hardly scratched or nearly dead. If time and patience holds up I'll try breaking a truce as well as breaking a full peace treaty to see if the bonus applies to both or not.

All that would be needed are the results (e.g. Fanatic attacker wins 157 of 250 against Fanatic defender). Because I know what the expected odds are, I can tweak the attack strength in the formula until it approximates the results you find. My suggested pairings are to have an even battle (on grassland/plains/desert, thus) between units of 1, 2, and 3 hit points. With 3 sets we should get an approximation of the sneak attack value. Others could verify with uneven combat afterwards.

You should be able to check the exact number of hit points remaining in cheat mode. If you edit a unit, you can enter (or read) its HP total. Tho that info would not be necessary for my purposes. Thanks!

I may do them in tranches because if I give you the horse -v- phallanx one and it comes out "no bonus" I'd probably let myself off the others.

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 04-23-2001 06:39 AM CYBERAmazon Don't get too carried away with this. I'm pretty well certain that the bonus is enjoyed just by the unit whose attack breaks the peace, not by all the units which subsequently also attack during the turn concerned. That is not to say, however, that there aren't occasions when you can get multiple opportunities. If you attack and are successful the A1 will often sue for peace. So accept and then, in the same turn, immediately attack again. This is another sneak attack attracting the bonus. In my experience the A1 doesn't learn any lessons from this and will soon be suing for peace yet again. It does so particularly often after losing a city.

EST:

I've had the AI get really PO'd at me when we're fighting. One thing I've discovered is that if you sneak attack, the AI will often end up harboring a grudge against you (such an option exists in the menus; it's called "vendetta"). When it has a vendetta against you, oftentimes it *won't* offer a cease-fire or peace treaty after "x" number of cities fall. Rather, it gets to be like a badger and keeps fighting, hissing and spitting and chasing even as it slowly dies.

I rather like the notion of having one or two inveterate enemies among the A1 civs. The Sioux and the Americans, the French and the English, Russia and the Americans, Persians and Greeks might all be candidates.

I have not seen a badger die but I did watch them (from hides, at night)once or twice in Epping Forest with a friend from 6th form days who was something of a naturalist. They are an endearing sort of animal and, by repute, very brave and tough. Sadly we used to have a "sport" here called badger baiting (it's been unlawful for a long time) which involved setting dogs onto them. Like much of our wildlife, they are much rarer than they were, here, and have a degree of legal protection. They are stubborn and like to travel along familiar paths. The mere fact that some idiot builds a motorway across that path does not deter them. So, nowadays, when motorways are built, if it cuts across a badger path a tunnel is constructed along the path's route so that the badger can still go its accustomed way without getting squashed.

We live in a truly strange world.