As it has been said before, it doesn't matter what tricks you do when playing SP and not posting logs here. But what if we are competing here e.g. who lands on AC the earliest? After reading Solo's log of his new landing recod, he tells us that caravan rehoming was a major part of his strategy. I'm not saying this is a problem at all. After all, we are playing a game here and the main point of it is to have fun! Solo actually told us that he had fun changing home town of his caravans "doing a sneaky thing". Competition with other humans is a part of that fun and for the competition to be fair we absolutely need to have the same rules, don't you think?

After all, there are many other "sneaky" things we do and get kicks of it. All commonly accepted. Like incremental rushbuilding, ship chaining and have a city hill square mined before building on it. All those things are in similar category of caravan rehoming: not intended by the developers! So I conclude that this mysterical argument of "designer intention" can't be used as a rule when judging these kind of matters. We must make the rules ourselves and this is exactly what we have done in the past. IMHO it's now time to try getting an agreement on this matter.

So my vote here is: let's accept caravan rehoming! I also like the sneaky nature of that practise..
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Solo was honest to tell us about rehoming freights and shared with everybody some of the interesting strategies he used in his epic game. Without taking anything away from his achievement, I am a NO vote for rehoming caravans.

If people do post records they should make it clear (like Solo did) if they have rehomed caravans. I don't see any problem in having two sets of records, one for those that do and another for those that don't!

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I don't know.
No in MP(unless you are way behind )
Do whatever you want in solo games.

Wasn't that rehoming?
IMO we are living in a world economy and thousands of products are rehomed every minute all around the world.
I don't know what the genious who designed this game had in mind, but I state that rehoming is absolutely realistic, and I use it and abuse it when playing civ (alas not with results quite as impressive as those achieved by arii and solo ).

Pro (2 - 14)
Gastrifitis
Rah "but must state you did it when you brag about it"

Against
Ming
Marko Polo "No in regular SP, but yes when shooting records and telling the others"
War4ever
Scouse Gits(2)
SG[1]
East Street Trader
DaveV
Marquis de Sodaq
Hasdrubal
Blaupanzer
Deity Dude
Boney
Solo
La Fayette

Don't know
Smash

MULTIPLAYER

Pro (0 - 14)

Against
Ming
Marko Polo
War4ever
Scouse Gits(2)
Smash
SG[1]
East Street Trader
DaveV
Rah
Marquis de Sodaq
Hasdrubal
Blaupanzer
Deity Dude
Boney

No comment/Don't know
Gastrifitis
La Fayette

Please correct me if interpreted your answer wrong. I'll edit this post when we get more votes!

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

Do we limit trade to a silk-tortellini route between Shanghai and Venice? Shanghai produced it, they should benefit from it. Rehoming prevents the origin city from benefitting from the trade, altho its civ does benefit. This would be inappropriate for despotism, republic, and democracy. Under a centralized government (monarchy, commie, fun), all gold ends up where the rulers want it, anyway. I think rehoming is acceptable under these gov'ts.

I vote NO. I'm one of those silly people who play an aesthetic game, not necessarily to win. Stick with how it really happens...

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

quote: Originally posted by Hasdrubal on 04-05-2001 10:20 AM One more no. It is clearly another unintended feature, making the game easier for the human player yet again.

This is an excellent argument which made an appeal to me. I also think that despite all AI cheating etc. this game gets eventually "too easy" for experienced players even at deity level. After hundreds of playing hours of course - the mastery of Civ2 is a loooooong process and takes a lot of studying and experimenting. This is also the beauty of the game: a beginner and a veteran both can enjoy the game!

That's why I'm going to flip from "pro"-side to "against"-side when it applies SP. However, I would allow it in the special occasion of a "new record" hunting, given that you tell this to others like Solo did in "AC 772" record. I concur with SG(2):

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-05-2001 02:47 AM If people do post records they should make it clear (like Solo did) if they have rehomed caravans. I don't see any problem in having two sets of records, one for those that do and another for those that don't! SG(2)

It's kinda similar than the "AC in BC with OC" which is possible only by using a special rivered-hut map. These two records are still outstanding and when pursuing those IMHO it's allowed to take advantage of all little sneaky tricks which are possible, excluding "save/tip a hut-->barbs/load"-kind of cheats of course.

quote: Originally posted by Gastrifitis on 04-05-2001 12:26 AM BTW, do you have a vested interest in this permission, Marko?

Yes I have. If I'm going to try shooting a record I need to know what's allowed and what's not. Also we need to have the same rules in succession games. I admit it: I have used caravan rehoming. This derives from my Civ1-days where this was absolutely "legal" practise. When I moved to Civ2 last autumn I discoverd this trick all by myself and happily started using it. After this discussion, however, I'll drop it altogether and I'm not going to miss it.

I wouldn't like to appear to be stubborn or unable to listen to what the others say, but frankly I don't understand:
this feature (rehoming) is common practice in modern economy (and in fact has always been, as 'le Marquis de Sodaq' just explained).
this feature (rehoming) is allowed for ANY unit in this game with help of the same button 'support from this city'.
Why should it be forbidden for ONE unit named caravan?

To answer your question more directly: caravans/freights are unique units, representing trade goods rather than a military force. As such, they have a unique source, which helps determine their value.

quote: Originally posted by rah on 04-06-2001 08:54 AM Because when you try to rehome a caravan you get a message saying you can't do it. So obviously it was the designers intent to not allow you to do it. RAH

Obviously, I must be missing something, since so many people seem to think that this is wrong, or sneaky, or kind of a cheat. I'll check to night what my caravan says when I move it.

No one will believe this, of course, but I got into the habit of doing most things from the city menu, because I was always being told "That function can not be performed here.", whenever trying the "f" command on a settler or engineer trying to fortify itself inside a city to help protect it when there was no other defense.

My vote is also NO, since the game explicitly forbids it. 776 was fun, but rehoming was a major reason for it, so for me it doesn't count as any kind of record. It was more of an exercise in possibilities.

There are two ways of trying to re-home and only one gives the "can't do" message. Evidently you always use the way which works. I'm struggling to remember what the two methods are but it must be something like giving the re-home instruction via the toolbar (which I think gives the "can't do" message) and clicking on the unit itself while in the city screen and then giving the re-home instruction from the pop up list or pressing "H" on the keyboard (which I think doesn't).

I suppose I am a bit influenced by the "can't do" message but my "no" vote is mainly based on a slightly different take. As with some other tactics the problem for me is that this one is both too easy to do and (I suspect) too effective.

I would accept the criticism of civ2 that the trade arrangements can be cumbersome (mostly because the "go to" function is so weak). But, leaving aside the occasional tedium, I usually rather welcome the need to take care to maximise the benefit of trade. It is my feeling that if I took up re-homing to my SSC some of the satisfaction would go.

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 04-06-2001 12:21 PM OK,Dave What do you say about '2 continents' or 'repeated commodity' (I was glad when I discovered those, then I came to Apolyton and noticed that Xin Yu and Adam Smith also had discovered them)? counter to the game? What do you say about Xin Yu's last finding, renewing a trade route by sending a food caravan? counter to the game? What do you say about a horde of 100 crusaders (I think I read that the other day)? Should there be built-in limitations on trade and no speed limit on four legged units?

I'd say all of these fit more in the framework of the game than caravan rehoming. Perhaps we should agree to disagree...

quote: I love this game. I know you love it too. Don't you think we are going to loose something if we act as a board of censors instead of acting as explorers?

Most of us rehome units by pressing the "h" key when we get the unit to its new city. That is what generates the message saying this is forbidden for caravans.

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

The only reason I posted was to state that the "can't do" message was an indication that the designers had considered it and decided not to allow it. (in reference to your comment on why any unit but that one)

I pass no judgement. We stopped but in some SP games I'll do it. (unless I going for a challange score to post, where it has been forbidden)

I'm am surprised (I guess I shouldn't be) that you never tried homing it through the drop down menues). Whenever I make assumptions, that happens.

RAH

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 04-09-2001 04:57 AM I haven't found the command that says no to rehoming, but I believe you and agree with you that if the designers wrote somewhere that it shouldn't be done, then it is kind of a cheat to use method #2 and do it that way.

La Fayette, at least in my 'Civ2 classic 2.42'-version if I move my caravan over a city and press 'h' I get a message box "You can't change the home town of a trade unit". Try it in your version!

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 04-09-2001 04:57 AM I haven't found the command that says no to rehoming, but I believe you and agree with you that if the designers wrote somewhere that it shouldn't be done, then it is kind of a cheat to use method #2 and do it that way.

Monsieur La Fayette!

My original copy of Civ2 was similar to the version you own - 1.07 I think? I believe even in this edition if you tried to press the "h" (for home) key, you received a message saying something like:
"That function is not possible".
This is the reason for thinking that re-homing caravans is really a cheat. I too used to rehome some freights, but the more I have understood about the trading configurations in the game, the more I feel it should not be done.

I think you can download the 2.42 patch from this site.
(Last week I had an enjoyable game playing as the French)

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SG(2)

quote: Originally posted by Marko Polo on 04-05-2001 04:52 AM SINGLE PLAYER Pro (3 - 13) Ming (did I interpret this correctly?

No you didn't... But I didn't make myself very clear.
Like Rah, I used to do it all the time in SP. But after many discussions here, I stopped doing it in SP. While there are many other "items" where the intent of the designers can be questioned, this isn't one of them.

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 04-10-2001 03:27 PM No you didn't... But I didn't make myself very clear. Like Rah, I used to do it all the time in SP. But after many discussions here, I stopped doing it in SP. While there are many other "items" where the intent of the designers can be questioned, this isn't one of them. So please consider me a no for both SP and MP.

Ming, sorry for the misunderstanding. And thanks for clarifying your point of view, I'll modify your vote immediately!

That being said, I consider it a loophole as a result of sloppy programming.