They give tithes in Fundy but not worth the longterm upkeep.

Shake's is a wonder, so it's effects are added to a city's happiness last. Therefore, if you take away improvements which are keeping citz content and they become unhappy, your luxuries have to keep these people content now, instead of making them happy. Any other citz that are still unhappy after everything has had it's effect is now made content my Shakes.

So if you still want to grow, or celebrate a "we love" day, then keep your improvements around.

"Happy" improvements are actually "content" improvements.They make people content.Economic improvements(thru tax rates) and courthouses(democracy) make people happy.

All I know is what i sw on the city screen... It might work that the luxuries make the person content and then happy. If there are only enough luxuries to make a person content, then when you add the "content" improvements, those luxuries then switch over to make that one or two citizens happy.

You can also sell off happiness improvements from the city in a pinch without the city going into revolt.

-Bob

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 01-02-2001 06:04 PM What are you talking about? .

You're quite right. Re-read my post - total nonsense. I have no idea what I'm talking about, and am going back to the top to read this all again!

Fergus

Do happiness improvements (not wonders, I'm talking temples, cathedrals, and coliseums) modify the number of luxury cups a city produces (e.g. +50%) or do they add to the base number of luxury cups a city produces (e.g. +2 cups)?

Factories don't create shields out of thin air, they add a percentage to the shields already being created by worked squares. Similarly marketplaces don't add to the coins being brought in by taxes. They take the coins already being brought in and multiply them by 150%.

However, temples help keep my citizens content even when my luxury rate is 0% and there are no entertainers in the city. How do temples help when there are no "natural" raw luxury cups coming in?

The "happiness improvements" (more properly called 'contentment improvements') work independently of the money and production systems. Each improvement acts directly on X number of unhappy citizens, making them content.

Red unhappies are affected directly, but when black unhappies are acted on, the improvement's effect is halved. For example, a colliseum makes 4 red; OR 2 red, 1 black; OR 2 black unhappy citizens content.

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 01-02-2001 10:39 PM</font> Sand, you're missing something. Happiness comes primarily from luxuries, and the effects of luxuries are all counted BEFORE the effects of contentment improvements and wonders.

Correct.

quote: First the citizens move one by one from unhappy to content to happy, based on luxuries alone;

Not true. Luxuries start out making any and all DOUBLE unhappy citizens happy first. Then they work from "left to right". If the leftmost citizen is content, it is made happy. If it is unhappy, it is first made content and then it is made happy before moving on to the next citizen. Bottom line: you can run out of luxuries before affecting all citizens and end up with a mix of happy and unhappy citizens.

quote: THEN any remaining unhappies can be placated by the improvements/wonders.

Yes, but there is a step between improvements and wonders: the effects of the military. In Rep/Dem citizens are made unhappy by miltary units away from home in a "right to left" fashion. Starting from the rightmost content or happy citizen, military units turn them unhappy one by one. If you have, say, a Temple and a Colloseum, you have potentially 6 content citizens who will be made unhappy by the military before your happy citizens are affected. Without the improvements, military units go right after the citizens that were made happy by luxuries and they turn them right back into unhappies again.

Of course, at the end Shakes just turns each unhappy into a content but if you lost enough happy guys from the military, Shakes can't give you them back and you may not have enough for WLTxD.

In other gov'ts of course you have the martial law effect from the military and therefore improvements don't matter at all with Shakes.

I don't know much about these numerical things, but I do know that in many OCC games selling off the temple immediately after building Shake's often made one happy guy content. So I started keeping it until I was done celebrating. Like SandMonkey I've seen it happen with my own eyes, so unless I was hallucinating...

I also remember that Sieve Too explained why in a thread about it. Don't have the patience to look for it, but I guess the post above settles the issue?

Whilst making a scenario, I gave a civ the wonder in their main production city and then decided to pile on the military units. Much to my surprise, unhappy people did appear.

Another annoying thing is that Shakespeare's Theater does not give you anything if you are running a Fundamentalism. Ideally, it should pay you one gold per citizen made happy, meaning that a Fundamental state could make a huge amount of money per turn from it.

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 01-05-2001 03:22 AM Sieve, the military stuff happens AFTER the contentment improvements -- after everything but Bach and maybe HG and Cure, and of course Shakespeare. Thus, improvements can't affect the military discontent either.

Improvements only help with the mix of happy vs. content when you have Shakes.

quote: I'm quite sure that temples, cathedrals, and colosseums have no effect whatsoever on WLT_D in a city with Shakespeare -- the luxuries determine how many are happy, and Shakespeare determines that none are unhappy.

Not true. The order of happiness effects are:

1) Luxuries: make some people happy, can leave a mix of happy and unhappy.

2) Improvements: can make some of the remaining unhappy citizens content.

3) Military: In Rep/Dem, the military first makes any content citizens unhappy and when it runs out of content, it makes happy citizens unhappy. This last point is crucial.

4) Wonders: In this case, Shakes, which makes any and all unhappy citizens content.

In order to get WLT_D, you must have at least as many happy as you have content. #1 can give you enough happies, but if you have no #2, then #3 will start immediately undoing what #1 did, leaving you with fewer happy citizens. Of course #4, Shakes, gets rid of all the unhappy citizens, but it does not restore the happy citizens lost. If you lose enough happy citizens from #3, no WLT_D.

debeest

As you say, the fact that two luxuries converts a double unhappy straight to happy without going thro' a content phase is well known. ICS seems to rely heavily on the combination of HG and one military unit keeping all its size two cities under control. But I too can't recall seeing an explanation of why two luxuries has that effect. DaveV is the guru of the black hats so maybe he could explain the phenomenon.

I'm not so sure about enraged to happy being an unintended feature. I can just about imagine it being written in while the developers were seeking the right balance between constraining expansion and allowing frontier cities a chance to get off the ground.