quote: Originally posted by smilo on 08-08-2000 08:43 PM Under certain circumstances not yet understood, cities can trade with themselves. If a city does this during an extended nr of turns, trade routes can suddenly disappear. Why? No idea.

I've seen 2 different situations where a city could trade with itself.

The first was simply sending a bribed NON caravan in and establishing a trade route - it will create 2 actually, assuming the city having more trade than other cities (if any) it is trading with.

The other way I don't quite understand , and haven't been able to duplicate. For some as yet explained reason, a caravan built by a particular city was allowed to reenter the city and establish a trade route a couple turns later.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith on 08-01-2000 11:31 AM I thought, and I think some others here have mentioned, that there was another condition on the supply of uranium. For example, nuclear fission plus a new city, or city less than size three, or city with mountain square. Also, I have a very subjective impression that AI civs stop demanding gold once they move out of monarchy. Your thoughts?

I think there is way too much complexity in that theory. In my experience the only thing that matters is which techs have been discovered.

If you want your city to produce uranium just build and deliver a trade commodity you don't ready want, like salt or hides. This will cause your supplied commodities to rotate and in all likely hood uranium will be the newly choosen commodity. Then just build a urianium caravan to replace that salt route you setup.

I can not confirm or disprove your theory about gold Adam. I would tend to think the the reduction of gold as a supplied commodity has to do with that fact that more new types of commodities are becoming available as supply items and gold thus is being selected less.

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 08-01-2000 03:10 PM William - If you are saying that an oil supply is guaranteed with industrialisation and likewise a demand guaranteed with superhighways - I'm sure you are correct. However, many AI cities have demanded oil long before automobile was even on the horizon - so there is considerable speculation on the subject. What size of world did you use for your tests?

I have never seen a city demand oil before industrialization. I have seen cities supply oil without industrialization however.

I use normal maps for my testing.

quote: Originally posted by jpk on 08-02-2000 02:45 PM William Keenan: It may be that nuclear fission is necessary for cities to supply and demand uranium. It is not sufficient. I am a compulsive micromanager checking every city every turn and, with some games, I have been deep into future technologies before I ever had a chance to build a unranium freight unit. To be sure there were always many cities that demanded uranium. If it matters I play with the Macintosh version. It is hard to imagine that their would be a difference with respect to uranium supply but I would not know for sure.

I addressed how to get your cities to supply urainium above.

Sorry it took me so long to answer you guys. Alas, life once again had to be put before civ ... ** sigh **

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Scouse Git[1]

Once I get radio I build truly massive numbers of freight units. Since I like to maintain a spotless reputation throughout a game I often get deep into future technologies. I play on 10,000 square maps and gradually conquer the world. Toward the end of such a game I have over 100 cities. At any one time close to half of the cities will be building freight units and I buy sufficient number of shields so that freight unit can be built in one turn--even if it means buying all 50 shields.

Even with that kind of freight unit building Uranium freight units are extremely rare. If simply building lots of freight units were the way to get Uranium as a commodity I would see far more opportunities to build Uranium freight units than I do.

In all the games I have played I can only recall one in which I had a city that reliably built a Uranium freight unit every other turn. That said, most of the time most cities never supply Uranium very few supply uranium more than once.

A note: someone in this thread suggested that the caravan/freight science bonus may be only half as great as the gold bonus. I've been playing OCC lately and watching my science extremely closely (counting every beaker I get, and generally wasting only about half a dozen beakers per civ advance even when generating hundreds of beakers per turn), and I can say definitively that you do indeed get exactly as many beakers as gold.

Another random undocumented thought that just might help the formulaists out there...

Has anyone given any thought to the return route? It seems to me that occasionally delivering (say) "Hides to Tashkent - desired" will cause one of the desired goods in my city to become parenthesised - could this happen when Tashkent produces a commodity I desire? Have I dreamt this? Does it matter?

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Scouse Git[1]

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 10-04-2000 12:27 AM This thread is of particular interest to me so I'm bumping it. William, how are you doing? Can you tell us HOW you're trying to decipher the trade equations?

In order to finish my paper on Advance Slot Properties I began to research the trade topic to determine what effects the discovery of different advances have on trade bonuses. What I discovered, of course, was that the Scrolls of Wisdom were not completely accurate, so I began researching the topic myself from scratch. I soon discovered that the formulas were more complex then I had a first imagined. For example, in the case of determining the gold/science value of a delivery there are actually multiple formulas.

Getting back to your question about how I am doing with it. I have allot less
The little time I have for Civ2 these days has to be divided among many projects and papers such as next revision of the Barbarian Paper, my work with the Scenario League, my web site, The Cradle of Civilization, and scenario creation and collaboration projects. Thus, the trade research project has fallen off my list of priorities and it is very unlikely that I will pick it back up again any time soon.

"I recently completed a road between my city and the city I'd traded with (no airports), yet there was no change in trade value."

quote: One game (2.42) I was Communist and started to send food caravans to increase the population of my capital. The contributing city never showed any loss of food!

As I understand it, only the first carvan results in a -1 food production. You can always build subsequent food caravans from that city to the same destination city w/o losing additional food production.

Debeest- the question was are science beakers from caravans halved if you are in FUNDY!
Also, thanks for mentioning the "other continent" modifier. I have found it to be very important.

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 07-26-2000 07:33 AM I'd send out the caravans anyway Just find a nice big city to send them to. The more trade routes per city, the better. And eventually the commodities will change to something you can get big trade from, and you have the extra trade in the mean time. The other thing I do is try and build a 'great road' between my civ and the AI I am most likely to trade with. It doesn't affect the size of the trade bonus (contrary to most of the posts here), but it gets your camels there a heck of a lot quicker. Also, that road can facilitate the building of more cities as well

I know this is super late, but I'm playing a game where I was late with bogus cargo four times in a row!!!!

You almost need an airport on both ends to get Hides, Wool or Beads on time. How did ancient man do it? It just seems a little weird to need super fast technology for such low tech goods.

Also from the single player days when some games I played were strictly to see what the largest IC&SB was, it seemed consistant, and is confirmed in this book too that it and the resulting route are partly benifited by if the comodity is demanded by the city you want the trade route with AND if the city you sent the caravan FROM also demands a comodity from the first city. So if both cities demand an item from each other at the same time, it is bigger than if only one of the cities does. Remember it is a TWO WAY trade venture simbolized by the TWO TRADE ARROWS and two named items in the efinished trade route. The book says this applies to the resulting route as well but maybe I misunderstand it.

quote: Originally posted by debeest on 10-04-2000 12:27 AM Another note: I recently completed a road between my city and the city I'd traded with (no airports), yet there was no change in trade value. Moreover, in the same game, I completed trade routes to three different cities with different trade, distance, etc., yet the trade values were all the same. This proves to me that the Scrolls of Wisdom formula is false (just as a single white raven disproves the claim that all ravens are black).

Also there was some discussion on how to know if say uranium or copper would be available from a city.
Copper seems to be from size 2 cities, and uranium seems to be from cities next to mountains from memory.
Sorry if I have recovered already discussed info, but I could not read this entire thread yet.

One thing I am confused about is: do the Transport/Superhighway Modifiers apply to the one time Tarde Payoff as well as the Trade Revenue? Conversely, does the 1/3 reduction by the discovery of Railrod/Flight apply to the Trade Revenue as well as the Trade Payoff? Also, does the 100% modifier for being on different continents apply to them both, only one of them and which one, or neither?