After building United Nations (I had had no contact with the other civs until this point), I gifted all my tech to the AI civs. I was expecting my advance rate for new techs to speed up, but it didn't even budge!

What was going on? I thought the # of beakers required for your next advance is partially based on how far ahead you are of the other civs. This indicated otherwise.

The answer came later in the game. Two civs had been destroyed early on in the game, so there were 2 free AI slots. The remaining AIs started fighting during the space race, and Persia's capital fell. Civil war errupted and a new French civ was formed. Shortly thereafter the new Persian capital also fell, and the Japanese civ was formed.

With 6 AI civs, my rate of tech advance fell from an advance every 6 turns to an advance every 3 turns.

I do understand that your science rate effects other civs, but not the other way around.

When I take a look at my science advance rate... it follows the number of beakers that have been discussed in past threads. And the number of AI civs, or their current level has never effected the number of beakers I need.

I was very suspicious. But Tom's theory makes sense. In game one, two AI's were destroyed. leaving 4. In game two, one AI was destroyed leaving 5. And there was certainly no parity in science in either game--the one city ruled. So Something very strange is happening and I think there are more than one factor.

Though I know that science giveaway definately helps reduce the advance time or beaker requirements, I also noticed awhile back that one needs to give away science to most all the AI to get the benefits. So maybe the cut off is science parity with 5 of 6 AI and definately don't kill off more than one clan!

Nice theory Tom, I was so frustrated in game1 of OCC11!

likewise, if you are far ahead, you may be more lackadazical in your research, knowing there is no challenge to keep up, and if you are far behind, you already see ideas in action and it is easier figure out how they actually work.

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 06-14-2000 11:21 AM I still don't buy in into the fact that the other AI's effect your science rate. I do understand that your science rate effects other civs, but not the other way around. When I take a look at my science advance rate... it follows the number of beakers that have been discussed in past threads. And the number of AI civs, or their current level has never effected the number of beakers I need. Can anybody really prove that.

Well, I had an autosave 2 turns before the "event" in my OCC replay, so did a little beaker counting.

Researching superconductor, I needed 3504 beakers.

Next turn, with a 7th civ having been created (with a full set of science), the beaker requirement had fallen to 1752.

I then gave away all my remaining science (laser, space flight, plastics) to all the AI civs, and the beaker requirements dropped again to 1679.

Of course, not killing them in the first place is better, but how to control the violent AI?

So I loaded up a saved game, and tried it. I build MPE, and gave every tech I had to all the other ais. My tech rate did not change before and after I gave these techs away.

Then I tried it in an OCC game (built MPE first, instead of Colossus). Same routine: gave away all techs, no change in tech rate.

Unfortunately, the manual only says: "As time progresses, new advances require more funding to research."

Anyone have a way to nail down this?

quote: Originally posted by Paul on 06-14-2000 06:11 PM Yes, I still hold the record. I landed in 1645 in the second fortnight game (the one with the monarchy start). This is the only one of the fortnight games that was started on a random unmodified map, so all the results from the other fortnight games don't officially count as records.

Paul,

The following table lists the beaker requirements for my first 10 advances. It compares the requirement for when all AI civs have no techs, 1 tech, 2 techs, 3 techs, and 10 techs

. . . . . . . . . . . . . All 6 AIs have

beakers for | 0 techs . 1 tech . 3 techs . 10 techs

1st tech . | . 10 . . . . . 10 . . . . 10 . . . . 10
2nd tech . | . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . 18 . . . . 18
3rd tech . | . 27 . . . . . 24 . . . . 24 . . . . 24
4th tech . | . 36 . . . . . 36 . . . . 36 . . . . 36
5th tech . | . 45 . . . . . 45 . . . . 45 . . . . 45
6th tech . | . 66 . . . . . 60 . . . . 60 . . . . 54
7th tech . | . 84 . . . . . 84 . . . . 70 . . . . 63
8th tech . | . 96 . . . . . 96 . . . . 88 . . . . 80
9th tech . | . 108 . . . . 108. . . . 108. . . . 90
10th tech. | . 130 . . . . 130. . . . 120. . . . 110

. . . . . . . . . . . . . # AIs with 10 techs

beakers for | 1 AI . . . . .3 AI . . . 5 AI. . . 6 AI

1st tech . | . 10 . . . . . 10 . . . . 10 . . . . 10
2nd tech . | . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . 18 . . . . 18
3rd tech . | . 27 . . . . . 27 . . . . 24 . . . . 24
4th tech . | . 36 . . . . . 36 . . . . 32 . . . . 36
5th tech . | . 45 . . . . . 45 . . . . 40 . . . . 45
6th tech . | . 66 . . . . . 66 . . . . 48 . . . . 54
7th tech . | . 84 . . . . . 84 . . . . 63 . . . . 63
8th tech . | . 96 . . . . . 96 . . . . 72 . . . . 80
9th tech . | . 108 . . . . 108. . . . 81 . . . . 90
10th tech. | . 130 . . . . 130. . . . 110. . . .110

You can see from the above table that by holding off giving anything to a single AI, my beaker requirements go down. This might explain some of the strange behaviour we see in OCC games. Sometimes beaker requirements will actually go up after we gift science to everyone.

This might be a terrible actual trade but...

Just for example: All six players the following five techs - Brz,Alpha,Laws,Burial,Monarchy

Team #1 has
A: Horse,Wheel
B: Writ,Lit and the GL

Team #2 has
C: Writ,Potry
D: Writ,Myst

Team #3 has
E: WarCode,Currcy
F: Writ,Mason

Teams #2 & #3 are concerned about player B getting Rep (for whatever reason) team #2 knows player B has been researching Rep for a couple of turns.

Player C trades Pottery to Player E vs Currency
Player F trades Masonry to Player D vs Myst

Player B now has Pottery, Currency, Masonry, and Myst for a total of eleven techs and instead of it taking him 72 beakers to get Republic it is going to take him 150 or so. Meanwhile Players C,D,E, & F get to research their ninth tech at a cost of possibly 90 vs their eight tech at a cost of 96.

Obviously, this is an overly simplistic example but what if someone with the GL is trying to get Monotheism or Democracy?

2 civs were destroyed early and at NO point could I manage 2 turns per tech.Despite giving everything to ai and even at 1839 beakers I could not get 2 turns.Landing 1803

I replayed it with restarts enabled and got "normal" tech rates (2 turnsPer for most game) with significantly less beaker output.Landing 16something

I then played it again,only this time I left 2 civs uncontacted.I did get 2 turns but not for very long.Landing 1750 something.

So,keep ALL civs intact and make sure you contact all of them.The earlier the better.

If I give the AI some of my advancements so I can research my next advancement in a shorter amount of time, I've also just shortened the AI research time by my gift. Therefore, what good did it do me?

There ain't no way I'm give away Robotics to anyone for any reason.

What am I not seeing?

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Frodo lives!

Haven't seen you post in a bit.

Yeah, giving away science like Robotics and Space flight doesn't make sense unless you're playing OCC. Most OCCers don't mind (in fact they like) the rate of science being increased for the AI since they expect to get a ship off to AC way before their AI rivals.

One example, Say you have 4 more years before you get your last sciences to finish off your ship--Fusion. And you have 3 more space parts to make before you can launch. It would be convenient to give away a bunch of science to the AI to facilitate a three year research of Fusion, thus timing the ship launch with the last year of research with nothing to spare.

But science give away is also good earlier in the game--as they say, 'before combustion.'

Sten makes the best argument for giving away technology. If I'm slowed up in my research by having more, then the AI should also be slowed up. Duh!!!

Boy, I've missed this site.

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Frodo lives!

Yes, bit confusing and wrong in the context of the thread

The thing about OCC is the AI can't keep up with all the science advancements as efficiently as the One City. Like you can give the AI university as it hasn't even built libraries in most of it's cities. And Economics as AI hasn't gotten marketplaces in its cities. I'd be surprised if AI has a single factory when I give it Electronics. Even Space flight is okay at times as the AI cities usually lack the infrastructure to build a quick space ship.

Yeah, giving away science slows down the AI's tech rate while speeding up the One City's. Too bad it slows down the AI's research! It's usually inconsequential in OCC since AI doesn't have the time to effectively utilize all the science.

So what is the right number of cities to assist the SSC in non-OCC? I have a hard time building and defending more than 3 satellite cities early on as most of my money goes to the SSC.

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Frodo lives!

Those satellite cities are hard to defend. And they often require resources I need for my SSC. Like rush built city walls. Once they get going it's good, but sometimes they impede the building of wonders in the SSC.

quote: Originally posted by Aurelius on 06-20-2000 01:01 PM The thing about OCC is the AI can't keep up with all the science advancements as efficiently as the One City. Like you can give the AI university as it hasn't even built libraries in most of it's cities. And Economics as AI hasn't gotten marketplaces in its cities.

It seems to apply to units too eg in OCC5 there appears to be quite a lag between your giving them (eg the Americans and Dutch), Tactics, and their stopping to flaunt their warriors. Only the Greeks with Leo's were showing off their upgrades.

Yeah, give those warrior nations Robotics. Can't imagine how long it would take them to build a howie... in OCC5 it would have been good to build a Marine for once!

[Edit: Yes, good use of the word flaunt...]

Thanks, A.

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Frodo lives!

quote: Originally posted by Tom DeMille on 06-15-2000 10:47 AM . . . . . . . . . . . . . # AIs with 10 techs beakers for | 1 AI . . . . .3 AI . . . 5 AI. . . 6 AI 1st tech . | . 10 . . . . . 10 . . . . 10 . . . . 10 2nd tech . | . 18 . . . . . 18 . . . . 18 . . . . 18 3rd tech . | . 27 . . . . . 27 . . . . 24 . . . . 24 4th tech . | . 36 . . . . . 36 . . . . 32 . . . . 36 5th tech . | . 45 . . . . . 45 . . . . 40 . . . . 45 6th tech . | . 66 . . . . . 66 . . . . 48 . . . . 54 7th tech . | . 84 . . . . . 84 . . . . 63 . . . . 63 8th tech . | . 96 . . . . . 96 . . . . 72 . . . . 80 9th tech . | . 108 . . . . 108. . . . 81 . . . . 90 10th tech. | . 130 . . . . 130. . . . 110. . . .110 You can see from the above table that by holding off giving anything to a single AI, my beaker requirements go down. This might explain some of the strange behaviour we see in OCC games. Sometimes beaker requirements will actually go up after we gift science to everyone. The moral of the story... I'm still working on that. [This message has been edited by Tom DeMille (edited June 15, 2000).]

I'm glad you did this. Having read this I realized something about my 1525 large world A.C. game. I was quite surprized that on a large map a super science city was able to get half of the science necessary for a tech discovery, and then some every turn. I don't believe that the rest of my civ combined was contributing even a 3rd of the beakers the SSC was) I'm quite sure that my beaker requirement never got over 2000. Granted, there were a lot of thechs I wasn't forced to research, but still, I'd have thought that the penalty would have been higher. But I realized something late last night when I should have been asleep. I was pretty liberal in giving techs away toall civs, but I never had much occasionto even talk to the Vikings. So they were always way behind the other AI's in tech. (Didn't talk to the Zulus much either, cause they kept asking for tribute, but I think they got techs from the other civs. Noone liked the vikings.)