I guess once you have Shakespeares happiness
is no longer a problem? Before that do you
need to use temple, colliseum, marshall law
and luxuries?

Thanks for some input on probably a dumb
question.

At least 4 turns for the 4 caravans needed,more likely 6-8 turns.Alot can be accomplished in that time.

You have to cram alot of stuff in the period from 1000BC or so to 200 0r 300 AD.

The only real benefit I can see is easy "we love" for Monarchy.But with trade routes,market and Collosus,it takes no more than 20% luxuries to celebrate in Monarchy.

quote: Originally posted by The SGs in concert (available at all good record shops!)

any chance of finding a T-shirt at your next concert? After all, if i tell my friends I saw the SGs in concert, I want them to believe me

I have this city, which has a temple, a Colosseum, and a cathedral, (Thanks to Michelangelo).

And yet there are guys in the population wearing those big garish red Stetsons!

What'd I do wrong? I believe I also have four military units present.

Any suggestions would be welcome.

(Yeah, I know, it's not OCC, so not strictly on topic, but anyway...)

quote: In my present game, I'm in Republic... I also have four military units present.

Martial law doesn't apply in Republic. As for what makes those pesky, ungrateful citizens of yours unhappy...can't tell from here. Happiness is one of the most complex elements in the game. Check for all the usual -related aspects: luxuries, units outside city, wonders, size of empire (the more cities you have, the more they become unhappy), etc. Tip: get lots of trade routes, then raise your luxury level.

With HG, however, you can still keep on celebration under republic since it gives you 3 more happy citizens.

Unlike the colosseum, HG's effect lasts after Shakspear has been built. Thus it continues to save you money when you need celebration (you need less luxury from other resources).

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 06-09-2000 10:46 PM There is a problem: HG expires on RR, and you may need RR quickly to give you another shield on mined hills. So you'll probably get RR before Refrigiration and can't use the HG to really grow your city to size 36. Have to use Democracy eventually, but that could be postponed.

Most occ'ers go for refridgeration before railroad so your strat is viable in that regard.

I'm still not convinced Usually after Medicine,you go straight for Sanitation,build Shake's,celebrate to 21 or as big as terrain allows.At this point,your non settler is scrambling to keep up.

Also,it is usually at this point that research drops to 2 turns per tech.You try to keep this rate going by building engineers,researching Refrigeration,growing to mid 20s(for scientists),research Automobile,superhighway,research Computers and finally build a research lab.

I think size 36 is overkill.You may drop out of 2 turns with that much celebrating if your treasury is not good.How much time will it take to convert size 36 terrian to 80 sheilds?.Remember,airbasing hills amd mountains is an OCC cheat and not permitted.

The odd time in between each "goal" it goes to 3 turns you gift techs until it drops back to 2 turns.Only for a brief period can 1 city produce enough beakers for 1 turn on its own(no caravans) so I don't beleive the extra citizens is worth the effort.

Paul's system has been refined by him and others to the point that even new civers would win OCC just by following it.

I'm a little unclear about the timetable.After trade you have to get your 3 routes up ASAP,build market,temple and usually colliseum followed by aquaduct.Most times you are still building the colliseum or aquaduct when Republic is discovered.Gold is usually scarce and sheilds are low.4 caravans may take 12 turns.

Besides, I tested this in cheat mode and with HG but without the colosseum you can only WLTCD to size 8. That means that you are stuck on a smaller city size when the colosseum player is already at 12.

And it will take more time to build HG than a colosseum so you will get to size 8 later in the game. That means that by the time that your smaller city build Shakespeare's Theatre my larger city will most likely also already be a long way towards completing it.

And as has already been mentioned, if you stay in republic you are stuck with the 80% max science rate. In democracy you can set science to 90 or 100% if necessary, so I'll go for democracy. It can make the difference between advances every 2 or 3 turns.

But of course you are welcome to try your OCC strategy and let us know if it works better than expected. If you go to my OCC page you can download some comparison games. For the fortnight games I have made tables with the progress of all the players who posted their logs, so you can easily see how well your strategy works compared to mine.

I read Paul's guide and he says to put roads
and mine trade specials in the beginning,
but after that I am unclear of how to
proceed with my settler(s)/engineer(s).

It seems that there must be some kind of
balance since people also mention several
times the need to get 80+ production.

To get 80+ shields you must have a base production of 32+ shields. That is the production that comes naturally from the terrain plus the bonus from railroad on forest/mines plus the shields from an offshore platform. Combined with the production bonuses of factory, power plant and manufacturing plant this will give you 80+ shields.

Using Inca911:
Manipulation of Special Terrain Squares

You can terraform these special terrain squares into different special terrains as follows:

Buffalo: Mine to Pheasant
Coal: Transform to Buffalo
Fruit: Transform to Wheat
Furs: Transform to Oil(in Desert)
Pheasant: Irrigate to Buffalo
Musk Ox: Transform to Oasis
Gems: Mine to Pheasant, Transform to Buffalo
Gold: Transform to Coal
Iron: Transform to Wine--very useful!
Ivory: Transform to Musk Ox
Oasis: Transform to Buffalo
Oil(in Desert): Transform to Wheat
Oil(in Glacier): Transform to Furs
Peat: Mine to Pheasant, Transform to Buffalo
Silk: Irrigate to Wheat
Spice: Tranform to Wheat
Wheat: Mine to Silk--very useful!
Wine: Transform to Wheat

Might be obvious, but building roads on rivers and on hills with wine or on silk/spice add an orange trade arrow.

Don't read the following if you are going to play OCC5:

I curious to know when you would build HG. Normally, we build in the following order, if possible:

(warriors, if necessary)
Colossus
Library
Marketplace
Temple
caravan
caravan
caravan
Colosseum
Aqueduct

There are ways to get around this - bribing non-eng or a bunch of non-settlers - starve shrinking your city before you build engineers - bribing AI food caravans (never seen that one) but all of those responses have costs associated with them.

Granary -- Sold at size 5
Colossus
Library
Temple
(Harbor) -- build as soon as you can
Caravan
Caravan
(Trieme) -- if necessary
Caravan
Caravan
Caravan
Caravan
Caravan (HG)
Aqueduct
Marketplace (Marketplace can be built before Aqueduct if you haven't reached size 8 yet)

My previous message was just how I normally build things, and I couldn't figure out where to put the HG.

I'll try it out both ways when I get some more time. I'll try to keep a log similar to the Granary thing.

One question. When I was trying out the "Granary-first" option, you advocated building a settler into the city. Are you still doing that for this? Basically, the same way again? If so, I would probably re-build the settler after the library.

Also, if this is true, I'll probably use the 4-whale comparison.