I had two particular problems. First, I was very late getting to Monarchy because the tech path didn't allow it. I can't recall the year, but it was by far the latest I've ever seen.

Second, and more important, I was relentlessly harassed by the Persians. They attacked me incessantly in the early years. I gave them every tech I had, but still they attacked. Either they just sneak-attacked, or they demanded tribute which I didn't pay (because I needed the money for rush-buying) and they declared war. Dealing with the fighting slowed down my progress enough so that I lost Copernicus. Finally, about during the gunpowder era, they left me alone. However in the later game -- about 1900AD -- they built a city just outside my city radius and resumed the harassment. They had troops roaming my city squares, and eventually they attacked with tanks. I held them off, but it was a big delay -- I had to use too many resources for military units. They also killed two of my engineers.

Is this normal for OCC? I didn't expect these kinds of sustained attacks until after I launched a spaceship. I generally don't mind a good battle, but it was really aggravating to not be able to field an army to wipe them out.

And with your techs you really need to streamline what you research!!!! the important ones are bronze working, monarchy and Trade!!! These are the must haves - ingnore everything else, so you can trade it or until you have to have it!!!

Make sure you read Pauls occ rules, he goes through what you need to research and build for each epoch!!! http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occ.htm

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Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tatses..." - Sun Tzu

and we build an Academy for this guy...

Constant war with an AI is pretty uncommon in OCC. If you are able to find AIs early enough in the game (before they find each other and start wars amongst themselves), you can generally form an alliance with them (just give them tech, and keep on giving). I can often form an alliance with all but 1 or 2 of the AIs, and the one or two that do not ally with me are too far away to harass me.

Good luck in future OCC games. Try the fortnight competitions - there's no "expiry" date on them, and anyone can join in on the fun

edit: Oldman raises a point that should be clarified with OCC games. If you play a scenario (such as the fortnight games), the tech tree is completely available - as long as you have the prerequisites, you can research it.

In a regular non-scenario game (such as birds saved game), the choice of techs to research is limited. After researching alphabet, ceremonial burial and code of laws, you might be offered a list of techs that consists of: Pottery and Warrior Code. Pretty annoying, but thats the way it goes.

The problem was that I wasn't offered first Ceremonial Burial and then Monarchy as research choices. I did Alphabet right away, then Code of Laws. Then Ceremonial Burial wasn't a choice -- I had to do pottery, masonry, and I think one other. Then I got Ceremonial, but after that it was 3 or 4 other techs researched before Monarchy as a choice. I've never had to wait that long.

Make sure you read Pauls occ rules

Thanks, I did. I wouldn't have had any clue otherwise.

Tom:
Nothing illegal about bribing units, so go for it. Accepted theory goes that the money spent on bribing NONE units could be better used to rush buy Wonders, but there are always exceptions.

I was able to bribe three Greek engineers for 320 gold each, because the Greek treasury was pretty low. I thought that was a good enough deal to warrant doing. That didn't happen until I had built one engineer of my own, which I disbanded after I had the three NONEs.

Paul:
Campo, which version of Civ2 do you have?

Actually I have them both. I originally got MGE but got frustrated with the AI attitude, so I picked up a used 2.42. That's what I played this game with, which made the Persian aggressiveness all the more surprising.

Lame Duck, you might want to look for 2.42. It really does make a difference. (Well it always has before anyway.)

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Scouse Git[1]

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Scouse Git[1]

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 05-16-2000 11:13 AM 4) spend all of your money before you talk to any AI.

Yeah, I learned this the hard way. I was accumulating to buy a wonder and had about 1200 gold, just short of what I needed. I encountered the Persians and they demanded 1000 gold. When I refused, they declared war and killed my horseman and two caravans.

Steve, "add the second settler" means that he will add the settler to the city to increase population. He will then later build a new settler. The major disadvantage to this is that your new settler will not be a NONE.

I wonder if I can get my title changed to "quicker than Paul"

quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture on 05-16-2000 11:13 AM 3) look weak - don't build a lot of units

Do NONE units count? Between tipping distant huts and bribing a couple Barbs, I had 6 NONEs. I wonder if that was part of the reason the Persians kept attacking me.

I did a little hut test and I found you were approx 30- 40% more likely to get a non settler if you didn't allready have one.So, joining city early and trying to get a wandering nomad might be good idea.

The part I disagree about more in Xin's suggestion is building a granary before building a wonder.

If you do this, you lose out on a whopping 1 (one) gold per turn while you build the colossus. That will add up to enough money to finish rush-buying your temple or library or marketplace. In addition, the merits of owning a granary in OCC are rather dubious, because you only grow your city via We Luv days, and ideally you only do it maybe 3 or 4 times a game.

Once you reach size 4 or 5, with your young republic working irrigated grassland squares, growth due to food-stocking comes pretty quickly even without a granary.

In any event, it Xin's plan sounds interesting enough for me to give it a try.

Hi. I tried your moves on the 4-whale OCC comparison game. I used the cheat menu to erase all my starting techs. I also moved the 2 settlers on top of the city location. Here is my partial log, with the “TLS” rate being an abbreviation for Tax-Luxury-Science:

4000bc (turn 1): founded Rome. Also built 2nd settler into city; shifted TLS rate to 0.4.6; building warrior
3950bc (turn 2): researching pottery; TLS to 4.0.6
3900bc (turn 3): warrior built; building warrior. TLS to 6.0.4
3850bc (turn 4): TLS remains at 6.0.4; nothing else significant happened this turn
3800bc (turn 5): Pottery discovered; warrior built. Building granary. TLS to 4.0.6 again. Researching CB
3750bc (turn 6): warrior exploring; found a hut, but will save it for later…
3600bc (turn 9): Discovered Ceremonial Burial; researching Alphabet
3500bc (turn11): Switched to Barracks; paid for rest of barracks, switched back to building a granary
3300bc (turn 15): granary built; building warrior. Alphabet discovered, researching bronze working
3250bc (turn 16): 2nd warrior moves back into city.
3200bc (turn 17): pop=3; warrior built, building Hanging Gardens
2950bc (turn 22): Bronze Working discovered; researching Code of Laws
2900bc (turn 23): Switched from Hanging Gardens to Colossus
2700bc (turn 27): pop=4
2550bc (turn 30): Code of Laws discovered; researching Monarchy.
2100bc (turn 39): Monarchy discovered; REVOLT; researching Currency; TLS to 2.2.6 to prepare for a growth in population next turn; I also switched one of my workers from working a whale to working a forest so that when I go to pop 5, the new worker will default to working a whale … normally, if all 4 whales are being worked, the new worker would work a grassland (no shield). This way, I get an extra shield or two this turn, and it actually helps me get the Colossus one turn faster. Several Loads and Saves to work this out.
2050bc (turn 40): Pop=5; Monarchy established; TLS to 1.2.7 with 1 scientist Sold Granary
2000bc (turn 41): Colossus built; building temple. The Colossus allows me to work all 5 workers without a temple at a 10% Luxury rate. Since I can produce 10 shields now, with 4 whales and the 5th citizen working on a unroaded, unirrigated plains square, it may be more wise to build a settler here than a temple, because I can rush-buy a good portion with my 129 gold

My log is a little different from your path. I got techs a little sooner and the 4th and 5th population increases a little later. I’m not sure why this happened, but this was a very interesting variant to what (I believe) most OCC guys do at the beginning of the game. I think any OCC player would agree that as long as you build the Colossus and establish a Monarchy before 2000bc, then you’ve had a pretty successful opening. In addition, your population is size 5, with your food box over half-full for the next increase.

The major trade-offs to this are that, of course, the land is unimproved. Another drawback is the lack of exploring and lack of AI contact this series of moves could often lead to. Basically, your exploring consists of moving a warrior out 5 squares, and then bringing him back before the city goes to Population 3. I ran into two huts, but I left them as they were because I didn’t want to mess up the series of moves you offered. If I would have found a tech in my path, of course, that’s good, but something like Warrior Code would have slowed me down just a tad, delaying Monarch establishment just a little bit. If I would have found a unit under the Hut, this could have really slowed things down, because I would have a size 2 city supporting 3 units. That would have probably made the granary come a little later.

After the second warrior comes back to the city, the next turn he can go out for another 10 turns as well (the third warrior is about to be built), giving you a chance to explore another direction, or to pick up the huts.

As for the 'lack of contact with other civ' part, do you think it can be improved without rely on luck from huts?

I'm curious about the approach of not building a granary. Could you try it as well?

Okay, here's how I would have played the same thing, where I save the NONE settler to improve the land. Keep in mind that I am nothing more than average at OCC. It's a pretty interesting comparison, with advantages and disadvantages to both ways. I hope everyone will chime in on anything that stands out to them.

4000bc (turn 1): Rome founded; TLS at 4.0.6; since I have four whales, settler moves to clear jumgle
3950bc (turn 2): researching bronze working
3800bc (turn 5): warrior built; he explores; building warrior
3750bc (turn 6): discovered Bronze working; researching alphabet; leaving all huts alone
3600bc (turn 9): 2nd warrior built; building 3rd
3500bc (turn11): alphabet discovered; researching ceremonial burial
3450bc (turn12): pop=2
3400bc (turn13): 3rd warrior built; building colossus
3250bc (turn16): settler cleared jungle; will road and irrigate next
3200bc (turn17): ceremonial burial discovered; researching code of laws
3000bc (turn21): that warrior dispatched on turn 5 happened to find the greeks. I didn’t trade knowledge or ask for gifts; I just made peace to keep the integrity of this experiment in tact
2800bc (turn25): discovered code of laws; researching monarchy
2700bc (turn27): pop=3
2350bc (turn34): monarchy discovered; REVOLT; researching writing. I could have picked currency, but writing allows the diplomat which is good for incremental rush-buying of units (that 30 gold unit).
2250bc (turn36): Monarchy established; altered TLS to 3.0.7
2000bc (turn41): moved warrior back into city, even though it will be about 6 more turns before pop4
1900bc (turn43): discovered writing, researching literacy
1700bc (turn47): pop=4; colossus built.

My treasury is at 99 gold (surprisingly less than on Xin’s line of play), and in either one or two more turns I will discover literacy (going for early republic). I still have my NONE settler, and so far he has laid four roads and irrigated four squares, not to mention clearing a jungle. My warrior, eligible to explore from 3800-1700bc, has uncovered a lot of ground. At 1750bc, I could have chosen to bump the luxuries up to 10% and let the warrior keep on exploring, but I brought him back to the city anyways. I also cheat-deleted a barbarian archer for fairness in comparison with my first log.

Despite not getting the colossus until 6 turns later, I feel better prepared to jump into Republic and WLTxD. I have contacted another civ, and hopefully they can help me out with either currency, mysticism, or a pre-req for construction. As it turned out, in this case the Greeks did have mysticism, so I’m on the inside track to Philosophy. I would gamble that they would discover masonry or currency before I discover republic. If republic was not a researchable option after literacy, of course I would go with either currency or philosophy.

As far as Xin’s line of play, I also noticed (after the fact) that the exploring warrior could go twice as far without returning, but I didn’t feel like editing it, then. But you’re right, it’s bang-bang right on time with that 3rd warrior being built right as the population goes up. So there is a much better chance of that warrior making contact with the AI if he can move 10 squares instead of just 5.

Lately, this thread has reminded me of chess discussions I had as a student . . . talking about openings, variants, lines of play, etc. If you know a lot about the history of chess opening theories, you might akin this discussion to what Nimzovich and Reti might have gone through to gain validity for the hypermodern openings (back in the '20s).

uh, anyways...

yes, i was lucky to get the straight path to monarchy--that doesn't happen a whole lot. I like how you brought up the trade-off between gold (30 more) and exploring. I guess whether you met an AI civ or not would determine if you bumped your luxury rate up to keep your warrior out exploring.

No surprise, luck plays a pretty big role in determining how early you meet AIs, tech path, etc. And of course, as two of our top OCC players have pointed out, this line may not work without 4 whales. Maybe with 3 whales and a rivered grass-shield square somewhere it would work -- just a little slower on the techs and colossus after pop4.

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Scouse Git[1]