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Topic: The Pikeman's defense. |  |
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AkwaticDudeCity
b.02-15-99
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posted March 30, 2000 18:24
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In some scenarios there are units which the cityadvisor states as: «+50% versus units with a movement factor of 2», but the Defense Minister states the same units as: «x2 vs. horse».So, what if that unit, in this scenario a Pikeman, gets attacked by a unit with a movement factor of 3, for example a Mameluke which is a horse according to the graphics? How will it defend against it? With +50% vs. units with a movement factor of 2, or with x2 vs. horse? Which brings us to the Bedouins unit, which have a movement rate of 3 and are camels according to the graphics. What about them, do they ignore the Pikeman's +50% vs. units with a movement factor of 2 as well as his x2 vs. horse? Has anyone figured this out? Or do i have to run some tests myself?
I'd rather not actually... lazy...  By the way i'm playing the 'Holy Wars scenario by David Morovan' as the Fatimids if that makes any difference. ------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes? |
The Mad Monk
b.02-15-99
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posted March 30, 2000 18:31
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AFAIK, the bonus applies to all units with a movement of two. There is no 'horse' flag for the game to latch on to, but most horse units have a move of two, so it's largely a matter of semantics. |
ottok
b.02-15-99
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posted March 31, 2000 06:33
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but also elephant! |
AkwaticDudeCity
b.02-15-99
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posted March 31, 2000 06:34
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So there's no 'horse' flag. That takes care of the camel units.
But about the cavalry, let me clarify what i'm trying to say.
If the pikeman, with a 5* defense, gets attacked by a cavalry unit with a movement rate of 3, how will it defend itself?
With A) 7.5
«+50% versus units with a movement factor of 2» (or is it «of 2 or more?),
or with B) 10
«x2 vs. horse»
Obviously the 2.5 difference can make a big difference.
And another thing, in the same scenario there are also catapults with a movement rate of 2, does the pikeman bonus apply to these catapults as well?
Seriously, there has to be someone among you who already figured these things out 
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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes? |
The Mad Monk
b.02-15-99
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posted March 31, 2000 11:52
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Since the attacker has a move of three, there is no bonus for the defender. The match must be exact. |
Seeker
b.02-15-99
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posted April 01, 2000 19:25
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Remember the thing about hit points and firepower as well (you'll find out about this if you try to make a scenario with anti-tank guns) |
shamrock
b.02-15-99
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posted April 02, 2000 11:09
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Through playtesting, I have found that the "x2 defense vs horse" is more accurately stated as:+50% (rounded down) to defense vs units with a movement of exactly 2. |
AkwaticDudeCity
b.02-15-99
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posted April 02, 2000 11:32
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Yes Shamrock! That is exactly what i needed to know. Thank you very much indeed.------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes? |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 02, 2000 14:53
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AK,
The pikeman bonus does not work on any unit that does not have a movement factor of 2.
Just to make sure I tested.
I took a flat map with nothing but grass squares. lined up 30 non vet pikeman vs 30
non vet horseman(movement 2). Attack 2 vs. defense (2*2) 4. Pikeman won 29 out of 30.
Lined em up again. but this time i edited the horse unit so its movement factor was 3.
The pikeman now won only 14 times out of 30.
An almost 50 % ratio. What u would expect for a 2 defense vs a 2 attack on open terrain unfortified. This test was done on diety level MPG. |
inca911
b.02-15-99
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posted April 03, 2000 12:21
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Thanks Neon Deon! It's great when people load up the game and take the time to prove/disprove the posted ideas! Keep up the good work! |
mindseye
b.02-15-99
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posted April 05, 2000 06:13
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Wait a second! Any unit with a movement of 2????Neon Deon, I have a special request for you: please repeat that test, only this time have the Pikemen defend against Howitzers! |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 05, 2000 16:40
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Howies????? oh ok but gee howies have 3 hit points and firepower of 2 thats gonna be a slaughter. Yep no chance. did 100 battles the
howies got barely a scratch.
[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited April 05, 2000).] |
Black Bart
b.02-15-99
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posted April 05, 2000 17:39
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LOL. I was just imaging pikeman trying to defend against incoming shells with just their long pikes.  Good info here. It would be nice if there was a horseman flag. The current way works good in the normal game. But if you want a horse unit with a movement of 3 or more in a scenario, pike defense against them won't work. |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 05, 2000 20:24
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Black,
Well that makes roads much more valuable. you could always keep em at 2 and raise road bonus to 4 or 5 per movement point. |
mindseye
b.02-15-99
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posted April 05, 2000 23:04
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Neon - Heehee, thanks for preforming that lopsided test! I didn't stop to think that, when facing Howitzers, the Pikemen's defense is insignificant, even when doubled! Like Black Bart I enjoyed picturing the scene of your test: a row of massive WWI-era howitzers, all lined up, cleated steel wheels hub-to-hub. The Pikemen, three miles distant, arrayed in densely packed square formations. The pikes are raised to fighting position. Then, from across the field ... "FIRE!" --- Okay, here is a more serious question: a veteran player once advised me that the Pikeman's defensive bonus only applied to units that had a movement of two and a hitpoint of one! This, he said, meant that the bonus was not used against Cavalry and Dragoons. Is this what Seeker was referring to (above)? And then there is still OttoK's qeustion of Elephants (2 movement, 1 hitpoint). This is actually relevant for me because I use an "early armor" unit to which give the Pikeman's bonus. Since this early armor appears with combustion, it is not unlikely that it will go up against dragoons or cavalry (just as happened historically). Do you feel up to another round of testing? Thanks again!!
- mindseye
[This message has been edited by mindseye (edited April 05, 2000).] |
AkwaticDudeCity
b.02-15-99
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posted April 06, 2000 10:41
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Thanks Neon for running the tests.
So, if i understand it correctly, the program makes no difference between cavalry, artillery or infantry. No matter who or what attacks a pikeman, as long as it has a movementrate of 2, the pikeman will have a bonus, right?
Does this also mean you can create units with a bonus vs. say... 3-move-units?------------------
ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes? |
Seeker
b.02-15-99
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posted April 06, 2000 12:28
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A "horse" in civ2:2 moves, 2 firepower, and 1 hitpoint. Anything else is not a 'horse'. Try making the tank attack strength 4 and testing it out. Give the piker the same hp and fp as the tank. The piker will still have defense 2 and so will lose every time. This was discovered in world war scenarios when people tried to make anti tank guns, they don't get the times 2 bonus unless the "tank" had 2 fp and 1 hp. |
Sieve Too
b.02-15-99
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posted April 06, 2000 14:01
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Seeker, are you sure about "horse" units having 2 move, 1 hitpoint and 2 firepower? There are no standard CivII units that fall in this category. Perhaps you mean an attack strength of 2, not firepower.I tested the Pikemen once last year and found out the same thing as mindseye. The bonus only works if the attacker has 1 hitpoint. Therefore Pikemen are of little value against Dragoons, Cavalry or Howitzers (especially Howizters!). Unfortunately, I never tested any other variables, like whether the Pikeman must also have 1 hp, or if fp matters at all. |
The Mad Monk
b.02-15-99
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posted April 06, 2000 14:52
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I would like to propose an experiment: raise the pikemens'defense to six, and drop the howitzers' attack to nine; give them both four hp and four firepower. If the bonus works, the results should be around 50%As a TOT player, I can tell you that there are tons of units in both the SF and Fantasy games that have this bonus, at stages in each game where a 'one hp' rule would render it useless... |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 01:03
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Darn!
Well i have to test everything over again cuase its all skewed. But, this u can take to the bank. The pikeman bonus is not 2 times its 50% Ie: he is a three not a four when it comes to units that move 2.
The pikeman wins 50 % of the time vs chariot and only 20% vs elephant! I tested em each in 100 battles, Pike won 52 out of 100 against the chariot and won 20 out of 100 vs the elephant. |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 02:35
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Two Hit Points.The pikeman defense does not work against units with more than one hp.
I Adjusted both the pikeman and the chariot to 2 hps. The pikeman won 2 out of 100 or 2%. Just to make sure I tested it with 3 hps each also. The pikeman won 0 out of 100.
I guess you could still make anti tank units.
just keep the hps at one and adjust the attack strengths more.
I am not sure about TOT tho have to get the program to test that one.
I also got an Email from the Pres. of the Pikemans union stating how he didnt apprecitate me using his members like they were a bunch of GM crash test dummies.  |
Scouse Gits
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 05:22
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Would someone please clarify how Hit Points work?
I am playing a Samurai scenario with ninja units which (if I remember correctly) are 2 attack 0 defense and 8! HP - although they normally go quietly when attacked by any normal unit they have occasionally knocked a Samurai 3/2 unit down to a sliver of red, when the Samurai was the attacker.
  ------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1] "CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor |
DaveV
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 07:23
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SG1 - as I understand it, even a zero defense unit has a small chance of winning. An 8HP unit would have 80 (small) chances to win, so it could end up surviving. I've seen other people report losing to barb kings, who only have 1 HP. |
Seeker
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 10:15
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Sorry. just checked rules, it's 1 hp and 1 fp (I think).This means pikemen shouldn't get a bonus vs dragoons. Attack: The chance to make a successfull attack on a unit, which inflicts damage to the opponents hp equal to the attackers fp, thus a warrior attacking a cannon needs to win the equivalent of two successful battles. Somewhere in the manual I believe it says that 1 hp is actually 10 hp, or something like that. There are a few times when you need to know what these represent, for instance shore bombardment both attacker and defender are considered 1 hp, 1 fp. |
The Mad Monk
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 10:39
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...and thus the pikemen become even less useless to me. I didn't think that possible.Sigh. |
Xin Yu
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 12:40
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I have another possible explanation: The pikemen flag works (+50% defense) if the attacker has movement 2 and its hp and fp are equal.In 2194 days of wars. German SS stormtroopers has a/d/m/h/f=7/5/2/2/2, pikemen flag. So is the Soviet Red Guard. The attacker always lose to the defender, indicating that the flag works in this case.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited April 07, 2000).] |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 13:07
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Wow! Again! This stuff is starting to sound like vodoo! Soooo, if MR. Pikeman has 2 hps and 2fps his D bonus works?? Oh boy this game is Vodoo! Now, all i need are some live chickens Here chicky, chicky chicky Okay Pablo line up the crash dummies.
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Xin Yu
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 14:23
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Ooops, I might be wrong. Moscow was on a river, that contribute to the defense of the Vet Red Guards. However they are not fortified. |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 14:41
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Xin,
I Think something might be off on your observation.
..........Pikeman on Steroids...............
VS
...........Chariots of Death................Pikeman defending. Both units at 7/5/2 hps 2 fp 2
7 attack vs. 5 defense.
Pikmen won 15 out of 100 battles (15%) Repeated test with pikeman fortified.
7 attack vs. 7.5 defense if bonus doesnt work. Pikemen won 59 out of 100 (59%) Bonus only works on units with 1 hp.
Gotta go some guys with really long spikes are at the door.
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adaMada
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 17:57
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Very interesting forum.Keep up the good work… |
geofelt
b.02-15-99
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posted April 07, 2000 21:15
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This is my understanding of how this works:
Firepower applies only to offense, it is a measure of how much damage a successful battle round will cause to the loser.
Hitpoints apply only to defense, it(times 10) is a measure of how much damage a unit can take in a losing battle.
In a battle, the winner gets no damage, and the loser loses hit points equivalent to the winner's firepower. The odds of winning a battle round is determined by the ratio of the attacker's offense strength vs the defender's defense strength. You can tell how many hit points a victor has left by the color bar. green=67-100%, yellow=34-36%,red=less than 33%.
Any unit with a defense of 0(diplomat, barb king, cruise missle) must almost always lose. I have bested a barb king on a hill with a warrior in the red and 1/3 movement left. On one rare occasion, a barb leader on a mountain did win, so I suppose there may be some rounding in the calculations. |
Sieve Too
b.02-15-99
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posted April 10, 2000 09:17
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This was tested extensively several month ago and IIRC, the rationale as to why a barb leader or diplo sometimes wins goes like this:The odds of the attacker winning a round of battle are not A/(A+D) where A and D are the strength of the Attacker and Defender respectively. Since D=0 for barb leaders, even when you consider any other bonuses, the above formula from the manual must be incorrect. A hypothesis was put forth that a round of combat was won by the attacker if and only if rnd(A*k) > rnd(D*k), where A and D are the Attacker's and Defender's strength and k is some constant, later found to be 8, and rnd(X) is a function that returns an integer (pseudo) random value between 0 and X-1. Of particular note is the fact that when the two random values returned from rnd(X) are equal, the defender wins the round. That is, ties go to the defender. Someone with more time and skill than me worked through the odds and tested it extensively with 100(!) units. The hyposthesis held. Therefore, any unit with 0 defense will sometimes win a round of battle when attacked. If the unit also has high firepower and/or hitpoints, while its attacker has low fp, hp and attack strength, the 0D unit may sometimes even win. |
mindseye
b.02-15-99
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posted April 10, 2000 21:43
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No wonder! And here I was all the time thinking it was just(log(A-(5A*(tan(Ax+Dx/D-Dx)+(x(D*cosAD))/(pi-a)/2)*(100-rnd(100))))+3
-mindseye :-)
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Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 11, 2000 00:39
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Umm. Why dont u just say zero aint really zero. |
The Mad Monk
b.02-15-99
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posted April 11, 2000 03:07
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Because that's not what he's saying; it's not that a defender of strength zero rises to a higher strength, it's that a non-zero attacker can drop to zero (resulting in a tie that the defender wins) |
Seeker
b.02-15-99
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posted April 11, 2000 13:00
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Creates an interesting idea for a custom unit in a scenario. Imagine a unit with 0 defense, but very high FP and HP. Against units with 1 hp it should win, but against units with higher FP and HP values it should mostly use.ideas: pillbox, bunker, sea mines, other immobile units designed to kill only units of certain type (the low HP and FP ones). example, barbed wire could be made 0d, 8hp 8 fp, versus infantry with say 5 att, 1 hp 1 fp. |
Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 11, 2000 18:37
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Ok im a little slow with zeros but I always thought 0+0 = 0 just as 0*0 = 0 and 0=0. Therefore u would have no formula at all. You are adding K to the mix making zero not zero. (0+K). Zero is not zero. Unless of course K is zero but then 0 would never win.
Well back to the crash dummies.
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Neon Deon
b.02-15-99
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posted April 12, 2000 00:42
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Diplos (attack 0)vs. higher attack values
I was curious to see how diplos win a battle so i ran a little test.
First let me say this about HIT POINTS and FIRE POWER. A hit point is not 1 it is 10.
so a warior would actually have 10.Firepower is how many hps a unit will lose per round.
So a warior with 1fp would have to win 10 rounds to kill a fellow warior. A unit with 2fp would have to win 5 rounds. 5fp 2 rounds. etc etc.
The formula for combat is located in the combat section of the manual. In it it uses the example of an elephant attacking a phalanx with no modifiers. The percentage chance of an elephant beating the phalanx is 66.7% in one round of combat. A/(A+D) OR 4/(4+2).
I did at least 1000 rounds of combat per attack value. vs. the diplo.
.333af (1 af with 1/3movement) 47.01%
.667af (1 af with 2.3movement) 20.51%
1af 11.67%
2af 5.84%The % on right indicates the diplos win %.
This test was performed with both attacker
and defender having 1fp.
Note: this does not mean that a horse will lose 6 times out of 100 to a diplo but that
a diplo has about a 6% chance of winning one
round of combat with the min. # of rounds being 10. The 62 Mets could win a game against the the 98 Yankees but could the Mets win 10 before they lost 10???
However, as u aproach 50 %, the combat rounds
will mirror the unit losses.
So MR. warior attacking at 1/3 strength could
end up in the morgue
PS: IF rnd(a*k) > rnd(d*k) then attacker wins combat except for a tie is true. Then it would not matter what your attack factor is vs. a zero. but it does. According to that formula a zero unit should never approach 50% vs a positve number much less have a different W/L % of different attack values. To say the attack value drops to zero is saying that the event is totaly random and should not adhere to a .333 unit
having more losses than a 2 unit or 1 unit or any number for that matter. Why because the right side of the equation is always 0.
(any number multiplied by zero is zero).
The left side can only be = to the right if the left rnd number is 0. this means the attack value is a mute point. If you say that the random number is never = zero then the left side is always more than the right cause the right is always 0 thus implying that the attacker always wins.
[This message has been edited by Neon Deon (edited April 12, 2000).] |
Sieve Too
b.02-15-99
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posted April 12, 2000 13:11
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quote:
A/(A+D) OR 4/(4+2)
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Although this is the forumla stated in the book, it is not the correct one. See link below.
quote:
IF rnd(a*k) > rnd(d*k) then attacker wins combat except for a tie is true. Then it would not matter what your attack factor is vs. a zero. but it does.
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Not exactly. Remember that there are two calls to rnd(X) in the above forumla, one for the attacker (X=A*k) and one for the defender (X=D*k). It is true that for a D=0 unit like a Diplo, rnd(D*k)=0 everytime. But note that rnd(A*k) will also return 0 approximately 1 out of every A*k calls. When both calls to rnd(X) return 0, the defender wins the round, just like the '62 Mets winning against the '98 Yankees. For a (very) detailed look at CivII combat odds, see below:
../../Forum1/HTML/000624.html
[This message has been edited by Sieve Too (edited April 12, 2000).] |
Xin Yu
b.02-15-99
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posted April 12, 2000 17:47
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Does anybody know when will the AI be 'scared away' from your units? I got most AI units scared away from my fortifiec positions in Red Front. Must be that the AI calculated the odds and decided not to attack. |
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