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Topic:   Distilled Civ Tips and Notes Format for Better Printing
DaveV
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Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted February 23, 2000 07:40   Click Here to See the Profile for DaveVClick Here to Email DaveV  send a private message to MarkG Visit DaveV's Homepage!
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Regarding roads - they will increase trade in *any* square that already generates at least one arrow. This includes all river squares and a lot of specials. For some reason, this fact seems not to be widely known.
Mark_Everson
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b.02-15-99
posted February 23, 2000 11:33   Click Here to See the Profile for Mark_EversonClick Here to Email Mark_Everson  send a private message to MarkG Visit Mark_Everson's Homepage!
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DaveV:

Thanks! That is a Very useful piece of info. I knew about the rivers, but not the specials. I've been around the block a few times on the forums and had never heard that one. I'll try it on multiplayer tonite just to make sure it works there also.

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited February 23, 2000).]

William Keenan
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posted February 23, 2000 22:17   Click Here to See the Profile for William KeenanClick Here to Email William Keenan  send a private message to MarkG Visit William Keenan's Homepage!
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Yes, Dave is correct. I have been investigating this recently and have found this to be true.

Any square that produces trde for any reason produces one more if there is a road in that square.

For example a glacier with a river and a road (under Monarcy)produces two trade.

Seeker
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posted February 24, 2000 14:36   Click Here to See the Profile for SeekerClick Here to Email Seeker  send a private message to MarkG Visit Seeker's Homepage!
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If you consider it "strategy" the uses of airstrips to: make hills produce food as well as mined, can be used to make inland cities invulnerable to air and nuke attacks.

Tribute: AI is much more likely to give tribute if: it is BC time, you have higher att units near his cities, it's your first contact, and neither of you have sneak attacked the other. oh, and "aggressive, militarists" never give tribute. Only "civilized perfectionists"
[This message has been edited by Seeker (edited February 24, 2000).]

Sten Sture
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posted February 24, 2000 16:01   Click Here to See the Profile for Sten StureClick Here to Email Sten Sture  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sten Sture's Homepage!
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Seeker are you sure about aggressive militarists not giving trib???

DaveV, Wm, & MarkEverson: the added trade arrow from roads also means that it is advantageous to "forest" river squares and cut down non-river forests. That way you can get trade in every square.

(please don't tell anyone in California that I want to cut down all of our trees)
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited February 24, 2000).]

Hoss
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posted February 25, 2000 00:28   Click Here to See the Profile for HossClick Here to Email Hoss  send a private message to MarkG Visit Hoss's Homepage!
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Seeker,
As far as tribute goes, in the latest OCC game at least two people were successful in getting tribute from the aggressive militaristic Mongols, so it can happen. I've never had much luck with them, though. Perhaps they need to be given more techs than anyone in a regular game would be willing to part with before giving tribute.

Also, I've found that you get more and better tribute when you have just researched a non-military tech, or is that just my imagination?

Seeker
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posted February 25, 2000 01:00   Click Here to See the Profile for SeekerClick Here to Email Seeker  send a private message to MarkG Visit Seeker's Homepage!
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That might have something to do with the way the Civilized and Militarists value techs. If you've ever edited the tech tree, you'll see that the Militarists place an outrageous value on Warrior Code and Polytheism. Obviously, avoid giving away Poly but Warrior Code for hundreds of gold sounds good to me...
Peacemaker
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posted February 27, 2000 19:53   Click Here to See the Profile for PeacemakerClick Here to Email Peacemaker  send a private message to MarkG Visit Peacemaker's Homepage!
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Thanks for the gerat info inca.

I am new to civ(less than 3 months) and this thread is a great resource.

Keep up the good work.

------------------
Don't let the name fool you!!!

inca911
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posted March 08, 2000 18:09   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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On Martial Law and Happiness:

Martial Law can be imposed under Anarchy, Despotism, Monarchy, and Communism. Each of the first three military units stationed in a city makes one unhappy citizen content, and this effect is doubled under Communism (so each unit makes two unhappy citizens content--very nice!).

Under Republic and Democracy, military units in the field that are not in a fortress within 3 spaces from a city you control also can cause unhappiness. For Republic, each roving unit beyond the first makes one citizen unhappy. For Democracy, every roving unit makes two citizens unhappy. This is why I build fortresses for my military before switching to Republic or Democracy.

Also, there are certain units that make people unhappy in their home city, regardless of where they are stationed. Under Republic, each Bomber, Stealth Bomber, Helicopter and Missle Units makes one citizen unhappy. This effect is doubled for Democracy.

One way to wage war under Republic and Democracy is to build Shakespeare's Theater. By reassigning your military units to Shakes before sending them in the field, you can ignore the unhappiness effects.

Now that I really understand the unhappiness factors, I can effectively prepare for government changes throughout the course of the game. I hope this answers your questions adequately!

Here is a repost of some comments on happiness made by Xin Yu that I believe are of great value. Thanks Xin!:

There are two levels of disorder control: global and local. Do the global first until most of your cities are OK, then deal with the few problematic ones.
First, choose the government. If most of your cities can grow using 'WLTKD' then obviously you should choose democracy or republic. The former is preferred since the courthouse gives one more happy citizen (crucial if you play deity and have a little bit more than a dozen of cities) and has no corruption. In other cases it's a trade-off between more trade vs. losing martial-law/free support and unhappiness due to troop out of city. Basically you add the increased trade for democracy/republic (adjusted for city improvements and trade route revenues), and compare with the total of lost martial-law luxuries (12 for commie, 6 for monarchy, 2xpopulation for fundy in deity), supporting shields (3 shields=6 taxs), and the out of city unhappiness (1 unhappy=2 luxuries). I would choose fundy or commie in the early ages but go to democracy when I can build superhighways. I may stay in commie/fundy if playing 2x production.

Second, decide the luxury rate. Since science rate can be set to zero (you use caravans to get sciences, hire one scientist), it's a split between tax and luxury.

Third, build improvements. For bigger cities, prefer marketplaces to temples, banks to cathedrals due to the following reason: a temple with mysticism keeps two citizens content, which is equivalent to 4 luxury. A marketplace increased both tax and luxury by 50%, so if you originally have 8 trade icons or more your total tax+luxury is better with a marketplace than with a temple. Same for banks vs. cathedrals. Of course wonders are different--they cost less and need no maintainence.

Fourth, use martial law.

Fifth, use Elvis if necessary.

Sixth, assign your troops properly in democracy/republic to reduce unhappyness. Two wonders can help: Shakespear and J.Bach. Actually the latter is better. If you have J. Bach, build a city on a mined hills and put a worker on another mined hills. Keep the city at size one, and with factories, hydro plant, and manufacturing plant it can support tons of units. It will not go riot due to JB's effect.

SlowHand
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posted March 11, 2000 20:19   Click Here to See the Profile for SlowHandClick Here to Email SlowHand  send a private message to MarkG Visit SlowHand's Homepage!
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Many times advisors suggest market before temples. Due to the above mentioned, I would suppose.
SlowHand
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posted March 11, 2000 20:21   Click Here to See the Profile for SlowHandClick Here to Email SlowHand  send a private message to MarkG Visit SlowHand's Homepage!
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There are times you will be advised to build market before being advised to build temple. I imagine a great deal due to the above mentioned.
inca911
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posted March 31, 2000 13:19   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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More on Diplomats and Spies:

In addition to all of the standard bits of info regarding diplomats and spies, here are a few lesser known items.

1. Having a spy in a city does not change the bribery price for that city.
2. The square you bribe from does change the bribery price for a city. I did not try to quantify a difference in terms of terrain, proximity of the spy to enemy civs capital, or proximity of the spy to my own capital. But there are "discount" bribery squares (about 5-15 gold less out of a base bribery cost of 80 gold. I'm thinking it is a proximity factor of my spy to my capital, but don't have enough time right now to pin it down precisely. Any volunteers???
3. An undefended city can be bribed at half price.
4. Remember that stacked units are immune to bribery, so your obsolete units can be added to a stack to make you riflemen in a mountain fortress unbribable.
5. Stationed spies do not increase the defense of the city to industrial sabotage. Stationed spies only prevent technology theft and I think they help against the enemy planting a nuke, but my games don't usually go that long to really have a good feel for that one--anyone have more info on the nuke protection?

Sten Sture
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posted March 31, 2000 18:57   Click Here to See the Profile for Sten StureClick Here to Email Sten Sture  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sten Sture's Homepage!
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Inca - I think it is actually your spy to his capital.
inca911
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posted April 04, 2000 17:18   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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Irrigation Without Water!?!

Another little known civ fact:
If you are in an area with no access to water you can automate your Settler under the "Orders" menu. He will first build a road on the square, and then he will build irrigation--even if there is no water around! I have noted that the settler seems to graviate towards special terrain squares if you have them, so you may have mixed success with this trick if you are in an area with a lot of specials until they have been improved. Anyone want to place a wager on whether or not the AI does this during play??

inca911
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posted April 17, 2000 16:49   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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*bump* for Jim W.
Scouse Gits
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
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posted April 27, 2000 16:18   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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Bump! this is too good to fall off the page ...
Sten Sture
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posted May 30, 2000 18:43   Click Here to See the Profile for Sten StureClick Here to Email Sten Sture  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sten Sture's Homepage!
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just a little nudge toward the top of the stack
outerface
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posted May 31, 2000 20:02   Click Here to See the Profile for outerfaceClick Here to Email outerface  send a private message to MarkG Visit outerface's Homepage!
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One thing that I've found is that the free resource in the city square includes when building on a special. This works for the four specials that don't already produce a shield, ex. Spice, Fruit, Furs, and Gems. If you're willing to have your first city only have one special, building on a Spice square gives you an early boost in research, as your city square produces 2-1-4 under Despotism, which helps on the race to Monarchy. Of course, if you do the start a mine- build a city trick the best is Wine with 2-3-5 after Monarchy. The other thing I've noticed is that if you build on a Gold or Iron resource you get a food from the square, despite it's being a mountain. If you're willing to take the slower growth, this is the fastest tech/money start as you begin with 6 trade arrows with no rivers or roads in sight. I find that I like to build on the specials that are on the fringe of the pattern and build my super cities in the middle of the pattern to use 4 specials.
jpk
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted June 03, 2000 13:24   Click Here to See the Profile for jpkClick Here to Email jpk  send a private message to MarkG Visit jpk's Homepage!
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Normally I play on a 10,000 square multicontinent world. I tend to be peaceloving until I get tactics. There are three laws for civilizations which I try to abide by:

1. Unless you have a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan.

2. Unless you have a good reason to attack something else, attack the capital with sufficient force to take it on the first try.

3. Unless you have a good reason to save your money, spend it about as fast as you get it.

Comments on these laws.

Early caravans are the fastest way to build early wonders like Copernicus and Michelangelo. By the time the early Rennaisance wonders have been built caravans are more profitable when used for trade. Also trade caravans delivered to a distant continent boost science far better than any library or university. Build other items if you need to stave off riots or need defenders. Diplomats and spies are good because they don't cost shields. If you have some money you can buy extra defenders.

If you can take the capital it will often put other cities into disorder or cause the AI to build another palace. But then it will be cheaper to bribe other cities. Sometimes a capital will be in an awkward location and you will have to take some preliminary cities.

Keep enough money so that it is expensive for AI civilizations to bribe your units or cites. Have enough money so that you can bribe attackers. Beyond that spend the money to build wonders or caravans.

Hopefully this message is worth $.02.

Scouse Gits
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posted June 05, 2000 20:08   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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jpk - Tactics is a long way down the line to stay in peace. Don't Ironclads and Vet. Knights tempt you into battle?

I'm changing my mind about always hitting the capital first. (Though I agree there are many instances when it is the best strategy). Some coastal capitals are worth preserving to the end. Bribe the other cities and bombard the capital from the sea, ignoring the city walls. (Coastal fortresses are easier for spies/diplos to bring down than walls). There is nothing worse than taking a seaside capital, only to find the government "escapes" to some inland city built on a river. Though the bribing price is always more if there is still a capital - a little sabotage can always even things out. If the result of this sabotage strikes at a temple/market place/bank or colosseum, the city may riot the following turn anyway, so a spare diplomat should always be on hand to buy at reduced prices!
--------
SG (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited June 06, 2000).]

SilverDragon
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b.02-15-99
posted June 06, 2000 07:28   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon  send a private message to MarkG Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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quote:

Originally posted by jpk on 06-03-2000 01:24 PM
1. Unless you have a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan.

And when you've built enough caravans...

SilverDragon
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posted June 06, 2000 07:29   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon  send a private message to MarkG Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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Build some more
Sieve Too
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posted June 06, 2000 07:51   Click Here to See the Profile for Sieve TooClick Here to Email Sieve Too  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sieve Too's Homepage!
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If you have enough military might, it is often better to forgo capturing the capital first. Usually the capital is geographically centered in the AI's territory, meaning you will be counter-attacked on all sides. Start from one end and work your way in. Make your first or second goal a city with a wonder you want, and a city that is easy to reinforce. Remember that everytime the AI moves its capital, that's 1000 gold less that you'll get from plunder.
jpk
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posted June 06, 2000 09:17   Click Here to See the Profile for jpkClick Here to Email jpk  send a private message to MarkG Visit jpk's Homepage!
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This discussion assumes you are playing against the AI on a multicontinent world.

Capturing a useful wonder in another city is a good reason to go after a city other than the capital. If the Great Wall or Pyramids is built in a city other than a capital the first two triemes together with three caravans and a diplomat that I build will sail to that civilization deliver the caravans and use the proceeds to bribe the city with the wonder.

If a capital is in a really awkward location, and this is common, you may have to capture nearby cities either with bribes or attack. AI cities frequently go into disorder. If you are not in a hurry and have sufficient money, station a diplomat in a boat just off the coast, wait for the city to go into disorder and then bribe it.

The AI civilization spends a lot of money when it moves the capital. That makes other cities easier to bribe. If the AI capital moves to an easily defended location, wait until you have superior attacking units and then go after the city. Veteran cavalry are acceptably effective against pikemen.

So long as a city can build a trade item caravan you can build another caravan. Depending upon the stage of the game a single caravan, delivered to a reasonably distant civilization on a different continent, is worth several hundred to several thousand coins. More importantly, you get the same number of lightbulbs. A single caravan can give you as much science as your entire civilization generates by cities in several turns. The idea of play is to develop an overwhelming technical advantage. This means you do not need armies consisting of scores of units. AI Pikeman do not fair well when they battle armor.

The Mad Viking
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posted June 06, 2000 11:22   Click Here to See the Profile for The Mad VikingClick Here to Email The Mad Viking  send a private message to MarkG Visit The Mad Viking's Homepage!
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If you're so cash poor that you want the plunder, I think you're doing something wrong. The value of the population points and the improvements and the units in a city make bribing the only way to go. This value is 10 to 100 times that of the plunder, and if you can eliminate the civs capital(s) and in so doing reduce their coffers to <1000 you can buy all the great stuff at firesale prices.
jpk
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posted June 06, 2000 15:07   Click Here to See the Profile for jpkClick Here to Email jpk  send a private message to MarkG Visit jpk's Homepage!
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The Mad Viking is not mad. By the time you get to Railroad money should not be a major problem. Build and deliver those caravans!
Xin Yu
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posted June 06, 2000 15:51   Click Here to See the Profile for Xin YuClick Here to Email Xin Yu  send a private message to MarkG Visit Xin Yu's Homepage!
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I say go for the capital. Don't occupy it, destroy it! Then you can bribe cities cheap before the AI build another palace. If you have spies, poison water supply to reduce the capital's population, works like a charm and let your reputation become notorious.
Steve Clark
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posted June 06, 2000 16:55   Click Here to See the Profile for Steve ClarkClick Here to Email Steve Clark  send a private message to MarkG Visit Steve Clark's Homepage!
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That's a great strategy Xin and one that I used frequently. 6 diplomats and 3 superior attack units can take any walled capitals of size 12 in one or two turns.
tonic
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posted June 06, 2000 20:17   Click Here to See the Profile for tonicClick Here to Email tonic  send a private message to MarkG Visit tonic's Homepage!
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I've asked for this info in the OCC10 thread (and have just emailed Paul about it). A table of the number of turns it takes for settlers and engineers to complete the various terraforming processes would be helpful (particularly for extremely time-critical OCC endgame switches - says the OCC greenie ).

tonic

Paul
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posted June 06, 2000 23:51   Click Here to See the Profile for PaulClick Here to Email Paul  send a private message to MarkG Visit Paul's Homepage!
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I don't have such a table, but someone probably made one. However, I would like to say that in OCC games I never transform grassland to hills. If you have only two or three engineers you can't keep them occupied on such a time-consuming job. If I can't get 80 shields in OCC I prefer to mine grass to forests. That takes less time so your engineers can actually finish it before the end of the game and do other jobs such as clean up pollution.
tonic
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posted June 09, 2000 00:17   Click Here to See the Profile for tonicClick Here to Email tonic  send a private message to MarkG Visit tonic's Homepage!
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Paul, thanks for the elaboration.

I'm probably reinventing the wheel here, but in the absence of takers, it's DIY (do it yourself) time. Here's the empirically obtained figures for *selected* terrains and terraformations showing the number of turns for engineer and settler, where x = undoable (us poor weak settlers )

grassl => hills 9 x
grassl => forest 4 9
forest => grassl 19 x
forest => plains 2 4 2 (Eng+Settler, both free to move next turn)
plains => forest 7 14 4 (Eng+Settler, both free to move next turn)
hills => plains 19 x
desert => plains 9 x 4 (2xEng, both free to move next turn)
tundra => desert 10 x
glacier => tundra 19 x
jungle => forest 7 14
jungle => grassl 7 14
jungle => plains 19 x
swamp => forest 7 14
swamp => plains 19 x

(Hope the simple tabling comes out OK - hard to judge from the limited input box)

Certainly selected for the OCCasion , the extra third colum shows some combined efforts - interesting how times are "halved" for odd numbers.

The experimental error appears to be +- 0.5. I'd be interested to get feedback to confirm or deny the occurence of spurious results. I'm sure others would also have encountered anomalous eg accelerated processes in normal play!

Turns taken for terrain improvements (roading, irrigation...) to come.

Sure, most experienced civers would have the figures in their head, but numbers are helpful particularly in the context of the challenge games for us novices.

Comments, additions and corrections welcome (yes it was a rush job .

SCG
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posted June 09, 2000 07:39   Click Here to See the Profile for SCGClick Here to Email SCG  send a private message to MarkG Visit SCG's Homepage!
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it seems to me there is essentially a table in the rules.txt file - since the game uses the file to determine how long various improvements (irrigation, mining, what comes next when you terraform). Somewhere in these forums i came across a couple threads (of which i can't seem to find again just yet) dealing with that. One was how to teraform in 1 turn, and another involved changing what something got teraformed into (gave an example of teraforming the oceans into some sort of land and mining to bring back the ocean). Anyway, also knowing that an engineer does 2x the work as a settler, you can plug in a settler to get it to the odd rounds. As an example, it takes 5 rounds of work to get a forest to a plains. So you actually only need 1 round from the settler along with 2 rounds from the engineer (2x2 + 1 = 5), so the settler could be off finishing something else the turn the engineer starts the timbering, and then come in the second round to help finish it off - saving a round of work that can possibly be used elsewhere (like clearing another forest )
tonic
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Now why didn't I think about rules.txt ? thanks for pointing that out, SCG.

Interesting your quote of 5 turns for the terraform, forest to plains (by a settler) compared to my empirical value of 4. This is an example of my observation about the error range for a given operation when the number of turns is greater than about 4 or so.

BTW sorry about the untidy table although it's just decodable - will use underscores next time .

inca911
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posted June 09, 2000 23:08   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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Nice to see others bump my thread while I've been away. I was worried that I'd have to dig it up out of some abyssal archive! Thanks for the kind words on my summary work. Nice tactics discussion going on as well.... I'll be back with some more tips after work cools off.
inca911
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Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted July 12, 2000 16:01   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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Does anyone have a "Guide to Play By Email Games"? I've recently started one and we've overcome some unusual hurdles so far and I thought a guide might be nice.
debeest
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted July 19, 2000 02:49   Click Here to See the Profile for debeestClick Here to Email debeest  send a private message to MarkG Visit debeest's Homepage!
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Tonic, I'm fairly sure you should add one turn to each and every number in your table. I don't think there's any anomaly at all.
inca911
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted August 25, 2000 11:29   Click Here to See the Profile for inca911Click Here to Email inca911  send a private message to MarkG Visit inca911's Homepage!
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Bump to facilitate Great Library discussion.
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