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Topic:   trade routes Format for Better Printing
mumba
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 17, 1999 14:58   Click Here to See the Profile for mumbaClick Here to Email mumba  send a private message to MarkG Visit mumba's Homepage!
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I would like to get some feedback on trade routes. Are they important if you want to go with science? People talk about getting 1000 arrows. I can't even come close to that. When I establish trade routes i get only 2-5 arrows from the route. How do you get so many. I currently play at prince level. I am a semi-micromanager who is into quick discoveries with large cities.
Sten Sture
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 17, 1999 15:04   Click Here to See the Profile for Sten StureClick Here to Email Sten Sture  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sten Sture's Homepage!
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When people talk about 1000 arrows for a trade route they are talking about the one time bonus. You get the same number of science beakers toward your next advance as you do gold for the treasury. When you are delivering trade goods, a bigger city, that is farther away and has some trade specials like whales or gems will give you bigger bonuses, and more "per-turn" arrows.
DaveV
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 17, 1999 15:12   Click Here to See the Profile for DaveVClick Here to Email DaveV  send a private message to MarkG Visit DaveV's Homepage!
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A minor clarification to what Sten Sture said: distance does, indeed, play a big part in the one-time bonus. But it doesn't matter for the continuing, "per-turn" arrows. Otherwise, most of the things that increase your bonus will also increase the "per-turn" arrows.
mumba
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 17, 1999 15:13   Click Here to See the Profile for mumbaClick Here to Email mumba  send a private message to MarkG Visit mumba's Homepage!
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What is the most arrows people have had one city produce and how did you achieve it?
valmont
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 17, 1999 15:24   Click Here to See the Profile for valmontClick Here to Email valmont  send a private message to MarkG Visit valmont's Homepage!
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Trade is essential if you plan to win through science. Trade arrows are the source of all your coins, grails and flasks.

To get a large amount of trade arrows in one city: Find a spot near some good trade specials (grapes, spice, gold, silk are mighty nice; whales are good too). If the spot has rivers, you hit the jackpot. Build a city there. Build the Colossus wonder and Shakespeare's Theatre wonder. Build roads in every square in the city radius; irrigate every plain and grassland square. Change to Republic; Use WLT*D to grow the city to max size. Be sure to build farmland later on to grow even more. Send caravans to the largest AI cities you can find.

Trade routes generate more arrows when the cities involved generate more arrows, so the more trade you get, the more you get. Just like life, huh! A route that is only worth 5 arrows at first will be worth many more as the city grows.

By now your city should be the tradingest town on the map, but there's still more you can do. 1) delay discovery of flight as long as possible; 2) go for automobile; 3) build superhighways. Wow, look what happened:

1. Republic or Democracy gives extra trade arrow wherever at least one already exists;
2. Colossus gives extra trade arrow wherever at least one already exists;
3. Superhighway gives 50% more arrows to aquares with roads;
4. 3 trade routes should bring in ca. 20 arrows each by now

p.s. the city I describe will crank out massive amounts of flasks if you build the Copernicus and Newton wonders in it.

Campo
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 07:59   Click Here to See the Profile for CampoClick Here to Email Campo  send a private message to MarkG Visit Campo's Homepage!
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I've read many of the old threads about trade, and you all have me absolutely convinced of its importance. I could see great benefits in my last game.

However, I agree with the originator of this thread -- I'm not getting anywhere near the kinds of gold and trade bonuses that people on this board routinely refer to. From a size 16 city with a good trade item, to a size 8 AI city (largest available) on a different continent, I might get 250 gold.

I do build a science city with the key wonders. However I send out caravans from that one early, to start generating trade early. At that point in the game it's only size 4 to 8, and the AI cities even smaller. Should I be waiting until later to start my science city caravans? (But then I'd lose the early benefit.)

How the heck are you getting a thousand or more gold from your non-science cities?

I have the MGE version -- is it possible that trade bonuses were reduced, or (more likely) am I missing something?

jpk
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 10:24   Click Here to See the Profile for jpkClick Here to Email jpk  send a private message to MarkG Visit jpk's Homepage!
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At the beginning of the game the trade bonuses are smaller, perhaps because the AI civilizations are in Despotism or Monarchy rather than Republic or Democracy. Also, because the source city has few trade routes, it will have fewer trade arrows, hence the caravan will be less valuable. When people report the size of their trade routes, they probably report the really big ones, not the smaller ones. I have acted this way. Don't worry about it. Get what you can from each caravan.

One way trade routes help is that they make it easier to get We Love the ? Days. If you have a Republic or Democratic government your city can grow and that seems to make the trade route even more valuable. Also, when you deliver a caravan try to deliver it to a city with lots of roads, whales, and fish. You will want the destination city to have a lot of trade as well. It will help if the destination city needs the commodity you are delivering.

Before you actually deliver the caravan zoom into the source city and alter the location of all workers so that you have the maximum trade possible. Don't worry about food or shields. If the destination city is one of yours, do the same for that city. Before you end the turn MAKE SURE YOU RESET THE WORKERS. If you don't you will likely leave your city undefended.

From time to time cities change the trade goods they produce. If you build three caravans so that your city can no longer produce anything but food, build something else. Generally, in a short time your city will be able to trade some new commodity.

What really speeds the aquisition of new sciences is the delivery of caravans. Build lots of caravans. If you don't have a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. It is my opinion that the one time bonuses are more important for the aquisition of new sciences than the science you get from the trade route. If you get 500 science beakers from the delivery of a caravan and a trade route of size 5 then it will take about 100 turns for the trade route to generate the same amount of science as the delivery of a caravan. The exact number of turns will depend upon your science rate and whether you have a library, university, or research lab. Other than in my science city, I rarely build libraries or universities. I find caravans are more effective ways of generating science.

Hopefully this is worth $.02.

Steve Clark
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 10:30   Click Here to See the Profile for Steve ClarkClick Here to Email Steve Clark  send a private message to MarkG Visit Steve Clark's Homepage!
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$.02?? That was worth a whole lot more, jpk
MyOlde
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 11:52   Click Here to See the Profile for MyOldeClick Here to Email MyOlde  send a private message to MarkG Visit MyOlde's Homepage!
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I'm not clear on this trade bonus thing. I understand it is a one-time only thing. But when does it occur. Is it when my caravan arrives at a city for the first time? The first delivery of a particular product?

Another one: is it better to spread a product around? If for example 4 cities "demand hides", is it better to vary the destination or should I always send hides to the city with the largest number shown? Which is what I tend to do.

Thanks.

Sten Sture
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 12:31   Click Here to See the Profile for Sten StureClick Here to Email Sten Sture  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sten Sture's Homepage!
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MyOlde - When you deliver a caravan to a city you get a message like: "Trade caravan arrives in Thebes, 305 gold" That statement means you also get 305 beakers toward your science accumulation, as seen in the science advisor screen.

Generally larger cities have more trade arrows produced, but a size 5 on a rivers with a whale might have more trade than a size 7 city on plains without trade specials. And you get a bigger bonus for deliverying your caravan to a foreign civ, especially if it is on a different land mass than the city that built the caravan.

DaveV
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 13:07   Click Here to See the Profile for DaveVClick Here to Email DaveV  send a private message to MarkG Visit DaveV's Homepage!
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MyOlde,

There are some tactical considerations involved in whether you keep running your caravans to the same city, or spread the wealth. Only the builder of the caravan gets the one-time bonus, but both cities benefit from the trade route. So if you're sending caravans to your own cities, you probably want to send the caravan to a city that doesn't have three trade routes already. On the other hand, sending all of your caravans to a single AI city will maximize your benefit and minimize the AIs'.

Carolus Rex
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 19:20   Click Here to See the Profile for Carolus RexClick Here to Email Carolus Rex  send a private message to MarkG Visit Carolus Rex's Homepage!
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To get an idea how important a caravan or freight is for your science:

i) Before entering the destination city, check with your science advisor (F6) and see where the beakers approximately end.

ii) Close the science advisor and send in the camel.

iii) Go back to the science chief and rejoice!

This procedure has become an addiction in itself to me. I just have to know, every time, in every game...

Even though the bonus is lower in the early game, trading is still important. The reason is the smaller amount of beakers you need for each advance. A 250 gold bonus might almost fill the box in one turn, whereas a 1300 gold bonus later in the game maybe "only" fills, say, half.

Caravans rule!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited November 18, 1999).]

Matthew
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 22:07   Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewClick Here to Email Matthew  send a private message to MarkG Visit Matthew's Homepage!
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There are several possible reasons you might not be getting larger trade bonuses. First of all the discovery of navigation and invention both reduce trade bonuses, and if no one's discovered these in the first 100 turns these penalties are applied anyway. The discovery of the railroad will also cause trade bonuses to be reduced, this time by 33%. The trick is to do as much trading as you can before these points, and also to keep your cities growing (in particular increasing the trade they get by working terrain, as that's what goes into the calculation). Freight units have a 50% higher trade bonus too. And the Superhighways will do wonders, not only because they increase the trade from any land square you work that already has trade, but also because of another bonus you get if both cities involved in the transaction have the Superhighways.

Also, supplying a commodity in demand makes a huge difference. If you build it, and noone demands it, save it till someone does or use it for a wonder.

If the AI or human city you are trading with doesn't have much trade (sometimes the AI's will avoid working a trade square like the plague) that will also mean less bonus.

But even if you only get 250 gold from a caravan it's still very worth while. Aside from the science bonus and continuing trade route, that's worth 62 shields in buying a wonder, 100 shields in buying units (most efficient for a wonder, buy a few rows of caravans you're working on for that wonder) or 125 shields towards city improvements. All for a mere 50 shields.

Sergeant Sheets
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 18, 1999 23:14   Click Here to See the Profile for Sergeant SheetsClick Here to Email Sergeant Sheets  send a private message to MarkG Visit Sergeant Sheets's Homepage!
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Trade routes also make excellent weapons. Nothing more amply covers an oncoming force than a train of caravans. Beware of stacked caravans, for they are in fact your demise.
Campo
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 19, 1999 08:27   Click Here to See the Profile for CampoClick Here to Email Campo  send a private message to MarkG Visit Campo's Homepage!
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Matthew said: "But even if you only get 250 gold from a caravan it's still very worth while. Aside from the science bonus and continuing trade route, that's worth 62 shields in buying a wonder, 100 shields in buying units (most efficient for a wonder, buy a few rows of caravans you're working on for that wonder) or 125 shields towards city improvements. All for a mere 50 shields."

I just want to be sure I understand this. Caravans don't provide shields directly -- you're just referring to the number of shields I can save by buying items with the gold, right?

Flavor Dave
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 19, 1999 09:13   Click Here to See the Profile for Flavor DaveClick Here to Email Flavor Dave  send a private message to MarkG Visit Flavor Dave's Homepage!
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Campo--you get bigger bonuses trading with a foreign city, and a bigger bonus for trading overseas.

It can be very useful to build a city on a nearby island, and home all caravans to your colossus city, then send them to this island. (This is during the trireme era, when it may not be practical toget to foreign civs.)

Winston
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 19, 1999 09:56   Click Here to See the Profile for WinstonClick Here to Email Winston  send a private message to MarkG Visit Winston's Homepage!
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Yes, Campo, you've got it right.

The figures for the units only apply if you use incremental buying, however. That is, instead of buying, say, a settler outright, you generate a few shields towards a warrior, buy the warrior, change to horsemen, buy that and so on. It's cheeper than buying the unit you're really after outright.

Some consider this a cheat, but I'm all for it.

geofelt
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 21, 1999 17:11   Click Here to See the Profile for geofeltClick Here to Email geofelt  send a private message to MarkG Visit geofelt's Homepage!
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I like to build lots of wonders, and early on, I have more problem getting the shields to produce the wonders than getting the prerequisite techs. For the cost of a caravan, you can build a new city, and I think this is better to do early in the game. Early caravans are not that effective because the bonus and the continuing income is dependent on the trade of both cities, and that is small, early on. If I am trying to build a science city, I build the wonders first, I can always build trade routes later.
Matthew
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 21, 1999 20:26   Click Here to See the Profile for MatthewClick Here to Email Matthew  send a private message to MarkG Visit Matthew's Homepage!
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very early, yes, go for the settler. But once you have enough cities that the extra unhappiness starts to become a factor It can really pay off to build the caravan to get that extra bit of thech to get MC or JSB sooner or some cash to rush buy a couple of temples in new cities. A size 5 or 6 city early on, especially with a couple of trade specials, can produce a surprisingly large bonus before invention and navigation are discovered.
War4ever
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 22, 1999 22:05   Click Here to See the Profile for War4everClick Here to Email War4ever  send a private message to MarkG Visit War4ever's Homepage!
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i have to agree with geofelt here.... i build alot of wonders too and i don't think i ever deliver a caravan for a trade route until well after AD. However I am a militaristic expansionist did I mention aggresive as well ... I do launch to AC in some games but often i just grind it out with large wars. However when i am AC bound... trade routes are important but not until later.... this is probably why i never come close to the record and why my bank stagnates in the middle game.
Jefferson Davis
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 25, 1999 09:04   Click Here to See the Profile for Jefferson DavisClick Here to Email Jefferson Davis  send a private message to MarkG Visit Jefferson Davis's Homepage!
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great insight
I love this site
Scouse Gits
Apolyton CS Co-Administrator
Macedonia, Greece
b.02-15-99
posted November 26, 1999 06:56   Click Here to See the Profile for Scouse GitsClick Here to Email Scouse Gits  send a private message to MarkG Visit Scouse Gits's Homepage!
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To all Micromanagers and Trade Route Sceptics!


Greetings - I have recently discovered a fantastic tool that is of immense help for micromanagement and will instantly convince those sceptics out there that Trade Routes rule!
It's a widget called the Cool Rule - an on-screen ruler (the straight edged variety - not one that is feted on WLT*D) and can be used to clearly measure the gains from each trade route going in on the beaker collection of the Science Advisor.
I wouldn't be without it and it can be downloaded free from www.fabsoft.com
Enjoy, Scouse Git[1]
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