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Topic: Please advise re: caravan strategy |  |
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tobyr
b.02-15-99
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posted November 01, 1999 14:52
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As a newbie, it seems to me that deciding when to build caravans, and when NOT to use them to complete wonders, is a rather difficult matter. I'd appreciate advice on this subject.I notice (playihng ToT -- original game, at Warrior level) that the AI generates a lot of caravans to my cities; whereas I rarely feel I have the time to build caravans to boost trade. What's going on? Are there specific advances that are OK to postpone while buildibg caravans? Are there types of cities best suited to building caravans? Am I missing something important if ALL my caravans go toward building wonders? Etc... - toby robison
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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com |
Sten Sture
b.02-15-99
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posted November 01, 1999 18:52
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The benefits to using caravans early in the game should not be underestimated. In the early half of the game the one time trade bonus you get from a caravan can be equal to 5 or 10 turns worth of coins and more importantly - science beakers. If you build a bead caravan and put it on a ship for some far off capital city you can get a really big bonus. 200, 300, 400 coins - you may not be aware that you also get that many beakers toward your next science discovery! This is a huge advantage and when barbarian forces can be bribed for 50-70 coins, you could equate a delivered caravan with 10 turns of science and the financial equivalent of a small army. Now multiply that by ten caravans and you can see why some players (myself included) consider the caravan to be the most powerful unit in Civ. Each city can benefit from having a caravan, but the ones with more trade arrows in production get the biggest bonus and per turn value. The bonus calculation involves the total trade arrows of both the city of origin and the destination, the distance, and if it is your city or a competitors; so if you have a limited number of caravans send them to the biggest AI city, as far away as possible. (delivering them by sea may help keep them from being attacked over land.) Using caravans for wonder building is great, and I don't intend to disuade you from doing so, but perhaps you would be better served to just use caravans from high shield/low trade arrow cities for rush wonder building. One general strategy focus that may be distracting you from "optimizing your critical path" (had to throw that in) is the attempt to build more Wonders than you really need. The now famous Paul has taught all of us through his OCC exploits that you can get away with building just a few of the wonders. Focus on 6 or 7, make a bee line toward those techs, and don't try to do everything!
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited November 01, 1999).] |
Matthew
b.02-15-99
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posted November 01, 1999 19:06
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Consider this: A caravan costs 50 shields to build outright. If you get a bonus of 100 gold, you can buy almost 50 shields towards a city improvement, or 40 shields towards a food caravan for wonder building. Not to mention the continuing trade route and science bonus. What's more, even early on, especially within the first hundred turns if invention and navigation are still undiscovered, one can often find bonuses of 400 gold or more. That's enough to buy all but the first shield of a market place, a library, and a temple. It is also enough to buy all but the first row (buying form scratch is always much more expensive) of enough caravans to build a 200 shield wonder. And I've gotten bonuses of 1500 gold plus in single production game. |
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
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posted November 01, 1999 19:15
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Let me answer the last question first (because it's the easiest): yes!  Sending caravans between your own cities or to foreign civs' is very important. You get gold, science and happy people. If you use the home caravan cheat build the caravans in high shield cities (with the addendum that those cities are not too far away from the cities you want to home them in). If you play straight it's better to build them in cities with trade specials and lots of arrows IMHO. I know that some civers always check with their trade advisor to see which goods are not in demand when they want to use the caravan for wonderbuilding. That's not necessary, whenever you use a caravan for wonders that commodity is still in supply in the same city as you built it in. It doesn't disappear. Have to quit now, but I'm sure someone will fill in the rest (and correct my puny advice ). Carolus |
Carolus Rex
b.02-15-99
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posted November 01, 1999 19:18
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Oops!Took some time to write down the stuff above so I didn't see the other replies. Carolus |
Steve Clark
b.02-15-99
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posted November 01, 1999 21:36
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Sten: Excellent reply as usual. I sort of question your comment about building excess wonders. Sometimes it's best to build a wonder that may not provide great benefit to you, but just to keep it out of the hands of the enemy? |
johnmcd
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 05:44
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I am very new to this forum, and am finding myself very glad that I am. I have been playing CivII since its release, but have only recently got on the web. In the years since I started I have gone through what I imagine must be the usual phases; compulsive, habitual, occasional, uninstall. Now, whilst trawling for CivIII information, I have found the wonderful Apolyton site, and have dipped my toe in.
Well the reason I pretty much stopped playing was that I had my strategy, it worked, and as long as I didn't start on a tiny island, or in a vast desert I would win convincingly every time. Now I am plunged into a whole new sea of methods and means to win. Are trade caravans really any good early on? I can't belive it, but I'll try. The colusses not a waste of sheilds? Incredible, but I suppose it may be true. All these techniques and more I had happily written off.
So now I get to start again, a whole new epoch of civing approaches. And OCCing. 
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DaveV
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 07:45
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Steve Clark,The single-city wonders (HG, Colossus, CO, INC, ST) must be built in your cities. If an AI builds one of the global wonders that you'd like to have, or you don't want them to have (Pyramids, LW, MC, JSBC, MPE, SoL, etc.), just go and take it away from them. |
jpk
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 10:15
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These comments refer to play against the AI. I am a firm believer in defensive wonder building. I play on a 10,000 square worlds. It can be difficult to capture a Wonder that is 80 squares from your capitol.The Great Library provides few advances but if I build it, I have a far easier time pulling away from the AI civilizations in science. If you play on a small world all the AI civilizations will trip over one another so they will be able to trade with one another and the location of the Great Library may not be important. If you play on a large world, the AI civilizations will tend to be clumped into packs of two or three and ignorant of the outside world. In this situation the Great Library helps. In general I try to build most Wonders. I practice I rarely build the Oracle, the Light house, or the Eiffel Tower. I willingly sacrifice getting King Richard so that I can get Leonardo earlier. If you are apporaching Civilization as A competitive game, then Sten Stures comments on focusing on a few key wonders are appropriate. Otherwise you can focus on maintaining a lead in science and cutting you most powerful opponent down in size. The relative importance of some wonders depends upon the geometry of your world. If you play on a small, one continent world I can't imagine that Magellan's voyage would be of any real advantage, if you play on a large, multicontinent world it is extremely important. Dare I say it? Yes, I will say it, on a par with Leonardo's Workshop. Sten Sture's comments about caravans are well worth memorizing. He mentions that a caravan is worth a small army. The procedes of one caravan are often sufficient to bribe or subvert one city. |
Sieve Too
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 10:38
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It's been said before and it's worth saying again: If you're not sure what to build next, build a Caravan.When considering a destination, always try to unload your Caravans across the sea, preferably onto one of those peace loving perfectionist civs. They tend to grow large cities and stay in Republic and Democracy - which only makes the route and bonuses that much more valuable. Watch out for trading overland, especially with aggressive civs. There's nothing sadder than to spend 20 turns moving a Caravan across the continent only to have barbs come out of nowhere or the Mongols to declare war and then crunch it. |
Steve Clark
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 11:22
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johnmcd: welcome Reading and posting in this forum clearly shows, that on a scale of 1 to 10, I'm at a 2. That's the genius of Civ2, there are an infinite variety of strategies. For me, I'm a wargamer and conquest-type, that's easy for me to do. But doing AC or ICS or OCC or massive caravans, I haven't the clue. If I keep listening to others here, I will learn to do those. |
Ming
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 11:35
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Just keep reading... there is tons of really good advice here. Plus, you might want to change your default setting (upper right hand corner) to view much older topics... set it beyond the "last 10 days" and look at much of the old advice that we have already talked about.
And keep on civin' |
Sten Sture
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 11:56
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Steve - Absolutely; denying a wonder to your opponent can be just as good as having it yourself and if you can build it without sacrificing your longterm growth rate - do it. And if you build all of the wonders, you should be able to make short work of the AI. My comment about not trying to build every wonder was prompted by tobyr playing on Warrior settings and having difficulty completing all of the wonders that he wanted. I sensed that he might be focusing too much on trying to get all of the wonders, and losing focus on the early growth and trade that makes it possible to develope the technology to take whatever you missed building.Ming is right on (full on in California, spot on in UK) about reading the old posts in this forum. I bet I spent 2 months reading old posts before I posted my first one; the amount of good info in old posts is astounding - most of what I post is parroted from something Ming taught us a year ago!
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited November 02, 1999).] |
Steve Clark
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 12:28
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Sten: Thanks for the clarification. Your comment about old posts is an issue that has been discussed way back in the dedicated BBS days. When someone new comes along, they are aware of the history of a forum but usually cannot/will not take the time to read all of the old posts. For new posters, others may have asked the same question but maybe not in the way they would put it, so it gets asked again. That's human nature.With the history of Civ/Civ2, I'm sure every question has been asked numerous times (favorite units/wonders, trading, AC/conquest strategies, etc.). I suppose people here don't mind, they keep nswering them if the number of posts they have is an indicator). Besides, moderators like Ming also don't mind, it keeps the hits coming and maybe someone in a blue moon would click on those worthless, annoying banners |
Hodad
b.02-15-99
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posted November 02, 1999 15:39
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What was the highest amount of gold you got from a caravan?for record amounts try tradig uranium later in the game, in a 250x40 flat world, your city in one corner and your rival's in the other. ------------------
Alien Infiltrate
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jpk
b.02-15-99
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posted November 03, 1999 10:53
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Hodad, a while ago I wanted to conquer the world while maintaining a spotless reputation. Since the Indians only had Delhi, the capitol, I had to wait until they delcared war. To pass the time I built a tremendous number of freight. One uranium freight was worth over 6800 coins, several were over 6300. If you get deep into future technologies uranium freight become more frequent.It was a 250x40 cyclindrical world. In answer to a comment by Ming in another thread: Yes, you can have too many caravans. It proved to be impossible to spend all the money I made from caravans. After purchasing more freight and whatever improvements I wanted I routinely had 40,000 to 80,000 coins left. Once I hit the end of the turn button the amount was reset to 30,000. I have the Macintosh version and there seems to be no limit to how much money the human player can have while the human is the active player. I have had over 140,000 coins at one time. |
poppawoppa
b.02-15-99
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posted November 05, 1999 23:18
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MULTITUDINOUS CARAVANS???I always seem to run up against the 3 trade route limit. I want to build more caravans to use for trade, but after the 3rd one, the only caravan option I get is FOOD. If I build a food caravan, I don't want to use it to establish a route with another city or even with my own city....no bonus $ and no beaker bonus either. So, I may stockpile the caravan for later WONDER building. This is bad enough in regular play (having to wait to develop a new trade good so I can build a new caravan for trading), but in the OCC, I find the limit of 3 trade routes and no new trade goods available - just about kills my attempt to boost science and get $ for rush building.
How do the experts handle this??? OCC, or regular play? Thanks for all the help on these forums; my play has been improving and it's kept me from arguing with my wife.... I never hear her talking to me when I'm in the middle of a turn. "Wait until half-time i.e., until the turns ends, Dear." |
SClark
b.02-15-99
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posted November 06, 1999 02:43
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One neglected aspect of caravan building is that trade routes are worth much more than gold bonuses. In the early part of the game, a trade route with the capital of a republic can often bring 6 trade at least; if you have a Library and a Marketplace that is equal to 9 trade per turn.A bonus is rarely more than 120 gold in this stage of the game, so in less than 30 turns the trade has exceeded the bonus. Note that trade, unlike bonuses, ignores distance; a prosperous city 5 spaces away will give you a lot more trade than a small one on the other side of the map. Supply and demand also does not affect the amount of trade. So, for a caravan strategy, ignore supply and demand, and send all your caravans to the biggest Rational Civilised capital (or if they've discovered Democracy, the city which you think has the most trade.) One other very important function of caravans is to keep your population celebrating. I have, with a Fundamentalist government, kept the entire country in perpetual celebration with only 30% luxuries, simply by having 3 trade routes for each city to the best enemy trade city. This effectively triples your trade (Superhighways now give a square that previously had one trade 3). Note also that sending your country's entire trade to one city is easier and faster to transport, and does not help him so much (he can only use the 3 highest trade routes). Caravans can be built by one city and then the support changed to another city, so that the second city gets the trade route. Also, the 'Hides' commodity never runs out; I have had a single city build 20 Hides caravans, which I changed the support of to one per city. |
Flavor Dave
b.02-15-99
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posted November 07, 1999 22:42
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I expand in stages--I take bites of land, then chew and digest. So, while digesting, I tend to build alot of caravans, some for wonders, some for trade. I play better when I don't have to choose between these two, I have enough caravans for each.If you go early republic, then you should try to send at least one caravan from each city to the Colossus city, or a big foreign city. That will help with the growth from We Love. | |
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