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Author
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Topic: Increasing or Decreasing Returns to City Size? Current Date/Time:
March 02, 2000 03:13:35
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mingko
Prince
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Feb 99
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posted September 10, 1999 17:35
    
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For SSS games, I believe that the initial approach should be the same (expand, expand, and expand). Consider stopping expansion when you have 6 or 8 cities in Diety if you want to do SSS. At this point, there is no unhappy factors due to the number of cities. You can then concentrate on building up a super-city. Settlers can be used to build roads around the super city for trade or adding population to SSS city if you do not have the wonders making WLT?D in your SSS city.
Colossus, Copre, and later Newton College are the most important wonders to go after. So are the advance republic and trade. These all increase the trade arrows.
Some other info. for unhappiness due to number of cities. At despotism,
1-4 cities: no extra unhappiness, 5-8 cities: Gradually, all cities get 1 extra unhappy citizens. 9-12 cities: Gradually, all cities get 1 extra unhappy citizen.
For monarchy, the magic number is 6. Republic and Fundamentalism: 8. Democracy: 10. The extra cities from huts may not add to such unhappiness. I have no tested thoroughly on that case.
Changing to specialist will take out the very unhappy person in a city first. That's why in an ICS game (is there a neutral name for this?), I prefer not to use any Elvis if possible. It serves me better using luxuries to offset the very unhappy citizens.
I don't think ICS is viable in non-team MP games. Once you are discovered using this strategy, you will be ganged up by others. You may also not having enough room for this type of expansion on an island.
[This message has been edited by mingko (edited September 10, 1999).] |
Adam Smith
Prince
From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 10, 1999 20:06
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Mingko:
On Diety I think the actual numbers before you get the first unhappy city are 4, 8, 12, 16 for despotism, monarchy, republic, and democracy respectively. Also, I would add Shakespeare to the list of vital wonders. Without Shakespeare you cant get beyond 12 content citizens without wasting income on luxuries, defeating the purpose of a science city. Valmont:
Suggestion for SSS game: try a science city plus seven others for a total of eight. You can usually get eight cities before you need to start building caravans, and can probably avoid unhappiness under monarchy (see comment to Mingko). Also, eight is convenient for rush-building caravans for later wonders.
An alternative (hybrid) strategy would be to designate one city as your science city, but continue expanding beyond eight cities.
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited September 10, 1999).] |
mingko
Prince
From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 10, 1999 23:07
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Adam Smith: I've re-tested relationship of the number of cities with the number of unhappy citizens. I stand by my numbers. Any others willing to do a short test? My testing version is Civ:2 MGE, I use cheat mode to create settlers then cities. And force the change of government via cheat mode again. Then look at the result in the city display after refreshing by by changing the tax rate. (In case of Fundamentalism, look through each of the city).
I check the fundy number as well because it affects the number of luxuries required for celebration. |
Adam Smith
Prince
From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 11, 1999 10:17
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Mingko:
My comments were based v2.42, which may account for the difference. |
DaveV
Prince
From:
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 07:44
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AS and mingko,I am also running 2.42, and I will vouch for mingko's numbers on Despotism/Anarchy and Monarchy. There is definitely a random factor in which and how many cities get the extra unhappies, and sometimes extra garrisoning units seem to make the cities more happy. But with one or two units in the cities, the magic numbers are 4 and 6. |
valmont
Warlord
From: Kansas City
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted September 13, 1999 15:13
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Adam Smith: Have you experimented with such a hybrid strategy?If unhappiness due to cities occurs in increments of four, does that suggest that one should time expansion to coincide with the next planned revolution? I found that 12 cities under monarchy were manageable. Further expansion could wait until the discovery of republic. By that time some happiness structures would be in place, and our settlers could have a road system all ready for our caravans. A third period of expansion would probably coincide with the the completion of a major happiness wonder - Mikes or JSB. |
geofelt
Prince
From: Neptune Beach,Florida,USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 20:16
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These discussions reaffirm my thought that Hanging gardens is the key wonder at deity which makes unlimited expansion possible. It makes the first citizen happy, always. This allows the city to grow to size 2 and spawn another settler, even without a garrison or temple. On a small world, six cities may be all you can get, but on anything larger, it pays to claim as many city sites as possible early. |
geofelt
Prince
From: Neptune Beach,Florida,USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 20:16
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These discussions reaffirm my thought that Hanging gardens is the key wonder at deity which makes unlimited expansion possible. It makes the first citizen happy, always. This allows the city to grow to size 2 and spawn another settler, even without a garrison or temple. On a small world, six cities may be all you can get, but on anything larger, it pays to claim as many city sites as possible early. |
geofelt
Prince
From: Neptune Beach,Florida,USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 13, 1999 20:17
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These discussions reaffirm my thought that Hanging gardens is the key wonder at deity which makes unlimited expansion possible. It makes the first citizen happy, always. This allows the city to grow to size 2 and spawn another settler, even without a garrison or temple. On a small world, six cities may be all you can get, but on anything larger, it pays to claim as many city sites as possible early. |
Adam Smith
Prince
From: Silver Spring, Maryland, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 14, 1999 00:18
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Mingko, Dave V:
I rummaged through some old saved games (all v2.42 I believe) and found at least one game that has seven cities with no initial unhappiness under monarchy. I am quite sure I had other examples, but do not know if I saved them. I will be happy to e-mail you the example I have if you are interested. Valmont:
Will post more thoughts on strategy later.
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited September 14, 1999).] |
jpk
Prince
From: Minneapolis
Registered: Feb 99
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posted September 14, 1999 10:51
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geofelt, I have played games where I possessed the Hanging Gardens(still operating) but the first citizen was not happy. This would occur in Deity level games when I was building lots of cities, my government was monarchy, and the city had no units in it. I don't recall exactly at what point it occurred but it would probaby happen around the 20th city. Speculating, it might occur at the point where the first citizen would be doubly unhappy were there no happiness wonders.In the unlikely case that it matters, I have the Macintosh version of Civilization. |
Sieve Too
Prince
From: New Hampshire, USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 14, 1999 13:58
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No Mac, thank God  , but I've seen the same thing as jpk: HG fails to make the first citizen happy. I also attributed it to the first citizen being double unhappy, but I don't know for sure. |
DaveV
Prince
From:
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 15, 1999 07:41
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From what I've seen in games where I have a large number of cities in Monarchy, you have to have a happy improvement (not MC, and maybe not JSBC) or an elvis in certain cities to keep them happy. I've had three garrisoning troops, HG, and MC in a small city, but it's still unhappy. When I check the happy window in the city screen, I don't seem to get any credit for the troops, and little or no credit for wonders. Creating an elvis or building a temple or colosseum seems to bring happiness back to the expected level.ST, I've also had a game where I had seven happy cities under monarchy. When I confidently built my 13th, though, I started getting double unhappies. There is a random factor, and it may be affected by the number of garrisoning troops. |
geofelt
Prince
From: Neptune Beach,Florida,USA
Registered: b.02-15-99
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posted September 15, 1999 13:32
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The rules text has a riot factor which is the number of cities, past which the first citizen is unhappy, or perhaps double unhappy. This is dependent on play level and government. I don't think it is random.
HG should make a city of size one happy, allowing it to build a defender and start on a settler workinf two squares. If you have too many cities, the second citizen is double unhappy, causing problems.
This is one of the problems with the many small cities strategy. |
Caspian
Chieftain
From: Britain
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted September 17, 1999 23:00
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I think my position in this question is to follow historic lines. At early stages of the game (I'm being vague here because obviously every game differs)I have many small cities. This simulates the small agrarian communties of history. Once the wonders/improvements/technologies become available to increase city size (and make it worth while) I nurture several key cities to simulate the industrial revolution. This is of course just my method of playing which admittedly is quite strange. I usually play on the World Map and strive for realism. Say for instance I go America. I try to keep within the bounds of the real country. I'm sorry to say that any cities I conquer out of that bound I consider to be colonies. If they are in disorder, hah, starve the buggers. Make them build settlers/engineers and send them to improve the land around my main cities (lets just call them coersed workers). Needless to say, my final scores are not always impressive but who cares? This is what I enjoy, the AI does n't laugh at me when I'm not looking. Multiplayer, now that would be interresting. "Oi you! (human opponent) send some engineers to me NOW or I'll crush your civ. But of course, I am quite mad |
Caspian
Chieftain
From: Britain
Registered: Sep 1999
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posted September 17, 1999 23:03
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E-Mail me if I need to be shot! | |
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