posted August 12, 1999 17:09                

To form a historical SE model, the knowledge of a historian is greatly needed. But since you didn't appear it's not kind of fair to blame me some historical mistakes.

My model is kind of stagnated. I don't change it much anymore. So becaues model building has become some kind of a hobby, I'm willing to rebegin from scratch and rebuild a model. It probably won't get ready until the next summary, then my present model should appear in it.
But together with a historian we can build a new one.

BTW, will we use my SE factors. They seem more accepted by everyone than my model itself.
Will we use the same?

I may seem positive now about DS' ideas, but this may change when he gives factors to it.

Comments on your model :

Government :

Sounds OK. But only it's not really much choice, is it?

Perhaps make 4 categories.

1) Absolute one person ruled governments
2) Noble/elite influenced one person ruled monarchy
3) Partial democracy = nobles/elite has franchise.
4) True democracy = all the people have franchise

Perhaps some distinction between representative and direct types.

"the monarch provides a personal figure to identify with the State (+ Nationalism),"

Now I certainly know I have to change the name.
Monarchy may increase Nationalism, but it doesn't affect your spy abilities. And that's what Nationalism affects.

In the light of the coming summary, I think I will rename some Factors and repost everything in one large (the largest ever) post. That will make it easier for some people to understand the things I'm saying cause some people(Theben), although my factor posts are very easy to find, don't seem to find them.

"Monarchies have a + Diplomacy factor ONLY with other Monarchies - because they can offer state dynastic marriages with other Royal Families to cement diplomatic ties - something no other form of government can offer to another!"

Gee, I don't know if that Diplomacy bonus has to be that big.
Charles V didn't doubt to attack his own family's countries!

Structure :

List looks good.

Economy :

I have 2 questions for you.

How would you call and give factors to the Dutch economy system?
You know (or should as a historian), things like the 'Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie'.

And how would you call and give factors to the French Colbert Protectionism and to the English Cromwell Mercantilism?

Your answers may explain the difference between my and your effects you give to some SE choices.

Values :

I just couldn't think of any value for starting civs, so I just took the SMAC name Survival.

You seem to be for automatic Value choosing = the player doesn't choose the value.
Good be realistic, but I like to decide things like that myself.
To quote Theben :

quote:

---

Whether or not it's realistic, people like to have control over their games.

---

I agree completely with that sentence.

Wouldn't it be better to rename Happiness to Socialism?

"Growth Primarily Population increase, but also includes geographic spread"

"But also includes geographical spread". Then I would rename Growth to Imperialism.

"and perhaps use the infamous Slider Scale to specify percentage of research resources going into each category."

I am in favor of a slider scale and simultaneous research. Read my Research factor post.

Religion :

"This is a mess!"

I won't give comment on this cause religion has changed a lot. And I just invented the idea, so it's normal it wasn't good yet.

State Religion :

Why don't you go to the Religion thread?
Cause this problem...

quote:

---

none of these religions existed when the game starts, so what State Religion does the Roman Empire or Egypt get?

---

...hasn't been mentioned in the thread.

"Finally, and I’ve said this before in the Religion Thread: DO NOT use actual religions in the game. Read some of the other posts in Religion:"

When did you last read the Religion thread. With the present ideas, real-life religions are possible, cause we don't give them effects.

Army :

You're right.

Some other comments. You seem to be in favor of a lot of random events, resulting in new SE choices.
May be good for religion, but not for Feudalism.
So "Fuedal Can develop from either social or military factors" isn't a good idea IMHO.

posted August 12, 1999 17:14                

Version 2

Maniac, I would like your useful suggestion on the current model. No comment like "your model suck". If you don't agree with the numbers I chosed, then propose a new ones. Please tell me if everything I wrote next to it ( balanced? ) is ok, or does it require modifaction.
Solid critism about the suggested options ( names ) themselfs will be taken heartfully: but I took the time to recheck facts ( make sure I didn't miss-translate protectionism, for example ) and history. I took great care in explaining in depth why I propose every item here. Ofcourse, it's my logic, not a universal one: but nothing is "silly" ( I took those out ). So think you will finds the options I list here balanced and historicaly correct. Take the time to read my explantions.

General comment

I am glad you accepted my "evolving SE" options ( -> ) and use it quite frequantly. However, you don't seem to realize that if you use it for one SE option in a section, you have to use them for all. For example: compare theocracy to your republic. Theocracy has one level, republic has 3 ( democracy -> True democracy ). Theocracy is balanced compared to either republic or true democracy. If it's balanced to Republic, then in the late game Theocracy is useless: no one will pick it. If it's balanced with True democracy, then in the early game Theocracy is too powerful. I think you see my point: in order to balance things, you need to have the same ( or near ) amount of levels for every option.

Military industry and centralization

For everyone, Military industry gives +10% for every +1 to the shield output when producing military units.
Centralization gives a similar bonus when constructing buildings, wonders and civilian units.

Model: version 2

Goverements

Control

I changed this model, so you will better understand the difference it has with Absloute power gov.

From:
Anarchy -> Despotism -> Police state
Too:
Anarchy is stand alone. Despotism -> Military autocraty -> Police state.

Do you understand now? It's not "Bad despost" vs "good despot". Control goverments aren't about absloute dictators: it's about control. In early days, a single despot ( as ruler of a single tribe or city ) controled the populce with the use of force. Then, regular army was used to that matter, and in modern-close future days a standard police force control the public ( think 1984 ). It's oppresive but not evil: those goverements describe a goverment that it's only function is too keep the public in order. It has no further aim or goal: just order. Now you see that it's more fitting to be the "no pos, no neg" option.

Anarchy: -3 Hap, -3 Tax, -3 Corr

Despotism: +2 Sup, -2 Hap
->Military autocraty: no pos, no neg.
-->Police state: +1 Pol
? Facism: loyality to the state and leader as a form of cult/religon. Is this fitting?

Absloute power

A single ruler isn't nessecrly oppresive or bad. Neither is he good. He is no more good or bad then a King. But a king rules with the power of blood line: a dictator rules by power, by mainly Charisma. Some dictators were aweful: Hitler, Neron. But, just like we had good kings, we have good rulers: Ceaser, Augstus, Claudius. Diodorus here can tell you how many times single rulers, which weren't kings, ruled nations but not nessecrly by oppresive forces and vicousness. The public is neither happy or unhappy with a single ruler: how he acts decide that. This form of goverment is very safe against intelligence but has problems rulling over large societies.

Dictatorship: +2 Pol, -2 Corr
->Totalarism: +2 Nat, +2 Sup, +2 Pol, -2 Corr, -2 Cult ( balanced? )

Monarchial

First thing, I scrapped Dynastry. I still think it's a logical conclusion to monarchy ( after all, it IS about blood lines ) but it is "wierd" and probaly too "hi-tech" for civ III. You made a point that the +Tax from monarchy is simply feudalism, and if I will think about it I will silly that monarchy itself shouldn't get a tax bonus. I am sorry, but you are not reading your history. We both agree that Banking is the first-form of free market. But in the Renaissance era ( not old! Are you crazy or something? First banks were created after the invention of paper money in the 15 centaury, not in the old days! ) states like France used a free-market system ( banking ) with a monarchy: but the taxes where still very big! Think about it. In democracy, you can't have high taxes: you won't get re-elected. A dictator can't raise taxes too much, he rules by his Charisma ( as much as Stalin and Lenin were brutal, people adored them then. Same with Mao Cha tong [ did I get the name right?] ). A control gov won't either because they want the people orderly. Only a king which rules with the power of older times and tradition can raise taxes without worrying about it too much. Don't mention the france revoultion: he both took too many taxes ( more then a monarchy can sustain ) and it was a revoultion like in Civ.
A monarch is just like a dictator, but he rules with tradition, with the power of the ones who came before him: a dictator rules by the power inhimself.

Monarchy: +2 Tax, +2 Centr, -2 Eco, -2 Urb ( balanced? Maybe -2 Hap is better? )
->Empireship: +3 Tax, +2 Centr, +2 Sup, -2 Eco, -2 Cult, -2 Urb ( balanced? )

Religos

First off, Diodorus got it right. We didn't have a true theocracy in the world. Religon, and the church, always hold great power: sometimes they were the power de-facto. But they never really ruled.
So, I thought to just thought we shouldn't use it: he is right after all. BUT, civ is also about what CAN. Alternative histories. And frankly, it's very logical to see a scenario where the religon insitute take over. In Iran the Aitollas rules for some time until they had democratic elections. Think about a civil up-rising in old europe: the king is thrown out, killed. The church allready holds great pieces of land and money: the church even had it's own hired army. They take over, starting a new goverment ruled directly, not indirectly, by the religous master. It's a logical scenario in my eyes.
* Lordship ( better name? ) is a religos country ruled by a the pope, or any other title of the high-offical of the religon. * Theocracy is the rule by a concuil of the religos elders, with delegated power of regions in local "holy mans". Very similar to what the Shandarin did when they had weak kings ( still want details maniac? ).
Iran isn't a theocracy, it's a democracy with a strong religon.

Lordship: +2 Urb, +2 Cult, -2 res ( balanced? )
->Theocracy: +2 Urb, +2 Hap, +2 Cult, -2 Res, -2 Dipl ( balanced? )

Free-will

Finally! You agreed with my point that in the broad-term defenitions we use republic should be united with democracy. Just proves to you we can comprimse. So, no further need to explain how it works.

Republic: +1 Centr, +2 Corr, -2 Mor
->Democracy: +2 Corr, +2 Hap, -2 Mor
-->True Democracy: +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Mor, -2 Sup

Market

Controlled

About protectionism
First off, we need to settle down your biggest historical mistake. Maybe it's because you don't understand what communism is about ( but how you kept saying it's a controlled market I got it ). Your mistake it about Protectionism. Now, I understand how you could have done this mistake. Let me make it clear what Protectionism is: economical shield policy. Meaning? Certain items are forbided, or limited in export to further increase the profitability of items made in the nation. There is no connection to communism! None what so ever! Please, trust me. I rechecked with a dictionary and an Encyclopdia just to make sure I am not making a huge mistake, and indeed I don't know what Protectionism is. Turns out I did all along.
I will give you an example. When I said that communism is from socialism, you said oh no! Belgium just got a social market and we are a free-market. By this I figure out you don't agree to put beligum with communism. Therefor, you suggested:

Protectionism->Communism->Utopia

But What if I tell you that belgium, just like its part socialist, is part protectionist? True. Every country, even the captilast US, has limited exports in a certain commodity. Beligium, for example is very strong in the sharpened diamong industry. Since Israel is a power in this field ( was first, lost it to India, not second ) I know you have limited export of diamonded cutted in Israel ( or everywhere else ). Same with Taxitles: beligium has a ridiclus high Taxtile limiting laws. That it protectionism.
True, a full Protectionist market limited much more then just diamonds and cloths, but I made my point. Protectionism has nothing to do with communism.

About feudalism
Have Feudalism ( manoralism? Why not castlism? Or maybe Citadeling? ) as a major option ( available thourth all the game ) shows you don't have a clue about Feudalism. This system cant stand one day in modern world. For starters, the trade which base this entire industry: farmers give food, lords give army protection can't work today as a single missile can wipe out the localized base of the lord: so why should the vessals work for the lord? People belive they were forced too: but most of the time the treatment to the plebs by the lord was a normal, healty relations of landlord/renter. The farmers couldn't go anywhere: they needed the protection gotten from the lord knights. In those pre-nation days, raid attacks where very common. Secondly, Urbanization and modern big cities would give the de-centelized system. Therefor, feudalism must become obselte and be replaced by something else.

Historical accuracy and CHANGES

I scrapped planned. No one could agree to it, including myself. Insteed, I picked a much more historicaly correct option: Colonization. Think about how europe market changed over times. First, where nations were dis-orginzed the king passed power to the lords and dukes to allow better control on his too-big nation. Then, protectionist were the market option when dealing with other european powers. When they start explorting the world, they used colonization to control the new resources.
When England took over lands, it didn't take over the resoruces by the name of the country: it did it by the name of companies. The british indians company was the power that took over India and the far-east: not england herself. When the spanish explored the world, beside the military leader you have the trader, the owner of the vessel, right there with him. Hoan de le cose was the owner the vessels that Colombus sailed across the seas: he was a part of the expdetion. Therfor, colonization is the logical and most historical connection.
Diodorus: I got it right, correct? That was the evoultion of europe monarchial markets in the middle ages?
All those systems hold big corruption bonuses: allows the nation to expand. That was the reason beyond Feudalism: the king couldn't control his land, it was too big. He delegated power to the Dukes, which delegated power to the Lords, etc, etc...

Feudalism: +3 Sup, +2 Corr, +1 Tax, -2 Centr, -2 Urb ( balanced? )
->Protectionism: +2 Centr, +2 Corr, +1 Tax, -2 Dipl, -2 Eco ( balanced? Not too different from Feudalism? )
-->Colonization: +3 Centr, +2 Corr, +2 Tax, -3 Dipl, -2 Eco, -2 Hap ( balanced? )

Simple

I really don't know what to do with Mercantlism. In the previous model, I used it as an evolution to currency. I know it's wrong. It's a economical strategy, no doubt about that. But frankly, considering it's problems and the short time-span it was used, I am not so sure we need to even use it. Now, let me see I got it right ( I hate translting concepts, you never could be sure you know what you are talking about ) mercantlism was the system used in europe to maximze export over import, and use the difference in coin ratio to accumalte profit. This system can really be used only in old times: in todays modern economy, with linked stocks, such "cheating" will probaly not work. Therefor, I "killed" Mercrantlism. Even if it will return somehow, this system must become obselte by something else.
Stocks exchange was an advance in trade. The stock system greatly enhanced trading with properity.

Barter: -2 Tax
->Currency: No pos, no neg.
-->Stock exchange: +1 Eco

Social

Social markets are for the people. Your second mistake Maniac was to say that Communism was "controled". In Marks original idea about Communism, the goverement really doesn't have any control over the public. You may work at whatever you like, you have companies, and you may even start your own company. Simple, you may choose whatever path you like. Only rule is: the goverment collect all the money and distribute is equalliy. So, you may be a CEO, a farmer, or a worker, you get the same pay.
Well, it's true it didn't work that way. The five-stages plan ( not five-year! ) main push was to de-nationalize farms, and give major insentive to the farmers and land-owners. Therefor, Communism is only a limited form of this goal, a market system in which the goverment took more control. However, it's still a social market, not a controled market.
About Utopia is clear enough I hope. We talked about it enough.
About the social market: remember, when I mean free-markets is a free market. No govermenrt intervention in any way. If you want a free market with social tendencies, like belgium, sweden and Israel for example, use Free market + Wealthfare as a value. No, a social market is when all the critical products are made and controled by the goverment. Farms, electricty, water, all of those are provided by national companies owned by the goverment and where every citizen may work and get a decent job. It's an extream of social market: we never had a true social market no more then we had a true free market. However, this is what I mean by social market: where most the industry in controled by the govermenet, by the concept of "cash" and "salary" still exist.
The main bonus is not for industry, is for Happiness.

Social: +2 Hap, +1 Urb, -1 Eco, -1 Tax ( balanced? )
->Communism: +2 Hap, +2 Cult, +2 urb, -2 Eco, -2 Tax ( balanced? )
-->Utopia: +3 Hap, +2 Cult, +2 Urb, +2 Env, -2 Eco, -2 Tax, -2 Pol, -1 Corr ( balanced? )

Free

Copy and paste.

Banking: +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -4 Sup
->Free Market: +2 Eco, +2 Corr, -5 Pol, -3 Env
-->Transnational: +3 Eco, +2 Corr, +2 Centr, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Mor

Structure

I really don't know what to make about Diodorus comment. He is right, confedarte and commonWealth are almost the same, and Feudal is more fitting to be a structure option then a market. But I would let you sort it out Maniac. I just post your own suggestion.
Just one comment: a distributed goverment is always more efficent to deal with large empires then a centeral ones. Shouldn't confedarte get the +2 corr bonus, not Federal?

* Tribal: +2 Sup, -2 Centr
->City State: no pos or neg
* Federal: +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap
* Confederate: +2 Hap, +?, -1 Centr, -1 Nat
* Commonwealth: +2 Dipl, +1 Eco, -2 Pol

Religon

Ok, about prosecution. If we have religous freedom, we olso need to have the difference. Religous intolerance. The USSR was Athiest, it was Religous intolerant. Athiesm is both the belief there is no god and in-difference to the question. Therefor, since he doesn't care, a TRUE Athiest will never forcebly opress his friend religous thinking. He would just let him go wrong all his life.
BTW Maniac. Religon is not the belief in god, or gods, is "a belief system, a code, in which a person or a group work out there lifes." Athiest IS a religon. I am sorry that sounds "peiorative to your ears", that just your problem. That what religon means.

* Animism: -2 Res
->Polytheism: no pos, no neg
* Loose monotheism: +2 Urb, +2 Nat, -2 Cult
* Fundementalism: +2 Mor, +2 Sup, -2 Dipl
* Religous freedom: +2 Hap, +1 Res, -2 Nat, -1 Cult
* Religous intolerance: +2 Pol, +2 Cult, -2 Hap
* Atheism: +2 Res, -2 Urb

State religon

Scrap, and with zeal! I allready told you why.

Army

Well, diodorus hate the CtP readness concept as well. I note that his suggested SE options and not very far from mine. However, in the interst of "unsilliness" I dropped cyborg army option ( the +4 morale was too big anyway ).
Maniac! I need some help to balance this out. Even if you still prefer CtP system, please tell me what numbers you would use if you would have liked this system.

* Basic: no pos, no neg.
* Militia: +1 Hap, +1 Eco, -1 morale
->Volunteer: +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -1 morale, -1 sup
-->Reserve: +3 Hap, +1 Eco, -1 morale, -1 sup, -1 mil
* The people army: +3 Mil, +3 Sup, -3 Morale, -3 Hap
->Drafts: +3 Mil, +2 Sup, -2 morale, -2 Hap
-->Civic duty: +2 Mil, +2 Sup, -2 morale
* Mercenery: +2 morale, -2 Sup
->Trained: +3 morale, -2 sup, -2 mil

Values

I conceed that Knowladge is a worthy value and deserve a double usage ( ala SMAC ), with research. However, Enviromtalism is a too modern value ( late 20th ) and the suggested values suppose to be universal. Beside, enviroment isn't as important in civ III as in SMAC ( atleast it shouldn't ), so I see no point to not settle with naturalistic.
Wealthfare is the suggested happiness/pacifsm/Socialism value.
I changed power cause I don't like how he is now. Tell me if it's good.
I accepted Diodorus reasoning that we need to change Survival.
I will include my updates suggestion on how to augmant the value bonus for minor civ in a later date.

Survival: +2 Mil, -2 Urb ( balanced? )
Power: +2 Mil, +2 Mor, -2 Centr ( ok? )
Knowledge: +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Tax
Wealth: +1 Eco, +1 Centr, -2 Hap
Wealthfare: +2 Hap, +2 Cult, -2 Mor ( balanced? )

Research

Your selected research type shouldn't limit your research option Maniac! What was that 75%? It should give you extra research when getting technologies in that field! For example, you pick Pratical with it's -2 res because it +bonus to military only gives you a bonus to military science! ( the rest would suck, ofcourse ).
Without further waiting, I present the research options.

Wise Men: no pos or neg
Nature: +2 Env, -1 Urb, Economic Science is +40%
Humanitarian: +2 Cult, -1 Mor, Social Science is +40%
Practical*: +2 Sup, +1 Mil, -2 Res, Military Science is +40%
Explorer: +2 Res, -1 Hap, Academic Science is +40%

* Prototypes in the workshop are for free.

The end

posted August 12, 1999 17:25                

I haven't read your post yet, but I've seen it's about your model.

I propose we forget both our models and rebegin with the wise advise of a historian.

So, to start again. What SE factors would you like?

posted August 12, 1999 17:41                

First off, regardless, I would still would like to ask you to read and comment on my large post since I spend 2 hours to write it and re-edit it.

I have tons of respect to Diodorus. And I would always love to use his concuil and advice about how to make our models more historacily accurate.

But, and there is a but, First: I am no fool with history either, Secondly: history, and cultures, are sometimes more in the eye of the beholder then just facts.

For example: I don't agree with Diodorus on his post about military industry: the differene in some countries size and cost of armies can't be justified by merely saying that a bigger portion of the resources is spent on the military.

I will give an example. I said that China's army is much bigger then her industry suggest. You replied it was because it's mostly rifleman ( a cheap unit ). Thats not what I ment.

When I ment china's army was big, I didn't mean it just have tons of cheap units, which sums up to a low amount. First, china has the biggest air force in the world. Secondly, if you add up all of china army, boat, man, and planes and calculte them in cost ( GNP worth in the real world, shields worth in civ ), then china has a more expensive army then even the united states.

But, the US GNP is 8 times bigger then of China! So, do we presume that the portion china spend on military on the budget is more then 8 times bigger then that of the US? The US spends 3.3% of it's budget on military. So China should spend atleast, and even more, then 26.4%. I really don't think thats how much china spend.

No, because china has built great military infra-structre and got a large, willing labor, it builds military units cheaper and faster then there wester conterpart.
I still think we need to have military industry.

posted August 12, 1999 18:10                

Look, Diodorus has his opinions and I have mine. IMHO, my model is, relativity, historacly accurate. I like it more then Diodorus suggestion.

posted August 12, 1999 18:39                

The problem with my (modi)factors is, that when there is an Army category, the Morale overthere also affects the warlikelyness of the senate. So my Morale (modi)factor sucks... The balance of my model is gone... My model sucks...

And you have to admit Structure is bad.

And if there's an Army category, it is true that Support and Morale are only affected by that.
More unbalance...

So, could you help me find a solution to Morale?

Begin to comment your post. What I didn't like already by the first time I read it was that -2 Eco for Colonization.
Want to clear something.
With my Mercantilism I meant what you see as Colonization!!!
You know, West-East-Indian Companies etc...
And about Protectionism. Could you search in an encyclopedy Colbert? Perhaps his protectionist system is mentioned over there. I could provide you with a _bit_ of information.
BTW, I didn't find that Sahandrin in my encyclopedy nor on Encarta.
And what the **** happened in 1984??? (did I forget something critical)

Yea yea, I know perfectly that Feudalism and Mercantilism aren't possible in these times. That's just why I didn't give them modern evolutions!
And about Protectionism. I know it's different from Communism. But you were hammering on using that ->, and they had a +Centr in common.
So that +Centr is the only reason I fused them.

More later or tomorrow.

posted August 12, 1999 19:10                

I will explain what Protectionism, Colonization and Mercantlism are.

Protectionism

Protectionism is not a specific market strategy. Protectionism is a name for a policty of "economics shield". A protectionist is a person who is pro lots of protectionist effects.
In this system, Imports are heavly limited by high taxes and certian maximum quata. For example, Belgium only allows a certain quata of import of Cutted diamonds. After this quoata, you pay an extreamly high taxes on importing it into belgium. Therefor, local customer are more likely to buy the local product other then import it, making the local markets stronger.
Every nation in the world has some pro-protectionist segements, but a pure "protectionist" market is one who highly limit all imports, making industry stronger but harming the economy.

Colonization

Colonization is a harsh form of early "transnational". The govermenet doesn't direct the market personaly, but thourth "strew companies", like the british india company. That was like a "puppet" company, mostly controled by the goverment other then the CEO and mangement. It was very ruthless market, which cause lots of profit but a great deal of pain to the naitive populce.

Mercantlism

Mercantlism was a system used by the france and british on one another by in the 16th and 17th centaury. You would export mass amount of items, and cause the local market to crash. By using quick actions, you gain a large profit by selling and buying different coin types and making a profit of the currency trade ratio.
Can't be done in today age as wired money transferens and instantous transacation don't allow this kind of "cheating".

About morale

This is a strange though: how about limited the senate warness to the level of diplomatic realtions you have with the side you wish to declare war with? We all know you have a relaltion scale with other AI: why not have a scale with human players and that level decided how warlike the senate is to that specific AI.
And who said that morale need to effect the senate anyway? Who said anything should affect the senate?

Army

Noway! Army should also effect military industry. I am still sure we need one modifator to reflect that also.

Shandrin

That was the jewish religos concuil that existed in the time between the destruction of the first temple and the second temple ( 500 BC to 0 AC ). While old Israel had kings then, in most times they were so weak that the Shandrin ruled over the peope de-facto. In that time the Orthodox stream took over in a very violent manner over the shandrin and enforce it's religon ( consider moving from loose montheism to Fundemnatalism ). This uprising, which transformed jewdish into an orthodox, hard-headed stream is that Jeasus preached against and in the long run caused the creation of Christenaty, which started as a new stream of loose monotheism that drifted apart from jewdism after some time.

1984

Hehe. 1984 is a famous sci-fi book, very famous. It describe a truely oppresive police state: modern prisons, survlleince carmea watching people in corridors, badrooms, everywhere. A single dictatorial being, Big Brother, is the center of the nation. A perfect example of my suggested futuristuc "police state". I suggest reading it.

Sleep

Once more, I suggest that you hop and one plane and come here and I could give you some training. Six hours is a lot of time Cadet! Try dealing with three of four every day for two weeks.
But then again, since my posting changed, I am more awake in the nights righting big, silly posts other then really doing something important

And told we could mold our models toghter.

posted August 12, 1999 20:11                

"That would again lead to endless combinations.
eg 30 civs and 4 religions +1 Animist 'religion' = 150 icons. Plus male/female = 300.
Plus let's say 4 time epochs = 1200. Don't think Firaxis will do that. (And if you would include specialists...)

Icons for each religions and for each sex = 5x2 = 10.
Four time epochs = 40."

Actually, the religion icon would be small & independent of the citizen bust. Thus you have 30 civ icons plus 5 (or more) religion icons, for 35. x2 for women, you have 65.
And most of the picture would be racial, so we have white caucasian, dark caucasian (Indian-pakistani), asian, african, and native american (caucasian-asian mix). So it's 5x2+5=15, not including dress styles to diffentiate between civs (cut n' paste ain't hard). And as times modernize dress styles tend to blend. So at most you're looking at:

5 races * 2 genders
5 religions (probably more though)
up to 120 styles of dress if 30 civs & 4 epochs, but there will be some that overlap
So at max 5*2+5+120=135 icons. Probably closer to 100. Right now there are 44 icons in civ2. And I wouldn't include specialists in the citizen icons.

posted August 13, 1999 12:36                

Some comments on the posts since my last Opus.
M@ni@c:
Charlie V is only one of many who were perfectly willing to go to war on his relatives, and the gamer or AI may do that as well when the situation warrants it. The Dip factor is a plus for those occasions when the situation doesn’t warrant it, and you really, really want that Trade/Peace/Alliance treaty. See below for more discussion on this.
The various forms of national mercantilsim, like the Dutch, English, and French models you mentioned, are bound up between the Economic and Trade systems in the game. Mercantilism as gamed must include bonuses for the civ in openning new Trade Routes (the ‘India Companies’ of the Dutch, English, French, and others) as well as manipulating Trade Routes between their country and others, which was the way the game should show Protectionist policies. As my first whack at Governments will show below, my approach is less +/- factors and more Special Attributes of the various systems.
Absolutely didn’t intend for Value choices to be automatic most of the time. Your population will choose automatically if you let the situations get to extremis: basically, letting any value and its effects drop too low without compensation may result in the population of your civ trying to compensate. Example: while Survival is a Default, if you have no contact with any other civ and no barbarian threat, no one in your civ cares about it, and you can set it low and concentrate on something else. If there is no pollution anywhere, Environment is not a concern. But, if you’re down to 3 cities surrounded by barbarians and 2other militant larger civs at war with you, setting Survival to 6th place and Knowledge to 1st should cause a reaction in your civ, because even though you know you have a chance to research Gunpowder or Catapults or whatever, the people don’t, and they are seriously worried about their own physical survival. Values get changed on you when you try to lead people in illogical directions without persuading them frst - like making peace with the civs and buying off the barbarians...
The theoretical model of Communism is indeed close to Utopian, but then the 1937 Constitution of the USSR was a marvelous document. Trouble is, the constitution was never followed in practice and neither are any of the precepts of theoretical Communism by human beings. By Communism we have to use the commonly recognized ‘real world’ model of a centrally planned economy and I thoroughly agree, it will have defects of Happiness and Efficiency.
Sigh, now I’ve got to go catch up on the Religion Thread. Also the Wonders, Combat, Units, etc, etc. Boy, you go away for a couple of weeks to wargame conventions and people just refuse to stop ideaing on the web!
Harel:
I agree, as you’ll see below, that individual rulers may be either good or bad. However, I disagree that Despotism doesn’t work well for large civilizations. It worked fine for two of the most absolute Despots in this century: Hitler and Stalin, since they were working through Totalitarian governments. As you’ll see below, I give despotism some very specific and peculiar disadvantages related to the fact that the despot has no legal basis for his rule and his succession.
As for monarchs and taxes, in addition to the French revolution you’d also have to include the English Civil War, started when Charles I went to Parliament for more money and got demands for reform of his government instead. Taxes were also a factor in the Peasant’s Revolt in Germany in the 16th century. High Taxes arepossible in a Democracy: European tax rates run up to 40% or more of income, but because the money is obviously being spent on Happiness improvements (game term for the socialist retirement, medical, vacation plans and infrastructure improvements) the governments get away with it. In other words, use the resources in ways that make the people happy, and they will pay for it. As always in history, fail to balance the Happiness ratings and the people get violently unhappy with you!
The problem with direct Theocracy is that it is an Alternate Historical scenario only without human beings as they are. The church administers to the soul. When it also gets involved in administering to the body (government) it winds up administering to neither. The same people can very seldom do both well, and all too often they concentrate on that which is immediate and obvious - political power - rather than that which is subtle and distant - religion or salvation. Look at the history of the Christian Church in Europe, which entered the Middle Ages with a huge administrative infrastucture and a lot of political clout: then read up on the history of Martin Luther and why he did what he did. A Church running government becomes too much government and not enough church, and gets thrown out of both. Better stick to the Influence model for Theocrats, it’s far more believable.
For a science fiction game, though, all bets are off!
I firmly believe that most of the SE options should be heavily modified by Advances and Improvements and interact with them. For example, Markets can be built even if you have a Barter or Manorial economic system, but they will not have much effect on immediate wealth. Enough markets will make it easier to change the Manorial to a Capitalist economy once Banking/ Instruments of Credit are developed. Banks and Stock Exchanges will modify greatly the wealth generated under Capitalism or Mercantilism, but have almost No effect under Communism. And so on - the details of all the modifying Improvements and Techs I haven’t even worked out yet, because the Tech Tree and Improvements still seem to be in open discussion, or at least they were last time I checked the Threads (more $@#*&% catching up to do!)
On Military Industry and the China example. Harel, China builds military units cheaper than the USA because its units are both smaller and have much less capability. It also has much less strategic lift and reach, less basic military research (name a completely new Chinese military weapon developed lately) and has concentrated almost exclusively on tactical air and land power - last I looked (several years ago admittedly) its navy was a 1960-style joke. Result: it avoids the big expenses the USA pays, and still has to use a greater percentage of its GNP to support the military. Also, a final point, it uses a Draft army instead of an expensive (in personel support costs) Professional Army.
I still don’t see a need for a separate Military Industry factor: you want to play China (or the USSR in WWII, which model China is following almost exactly) it can be done without it.

And now to stir the pot again; commentary on Governments...

Governments:
Tribal Assembly
+2 Hap*, -1or more Centr (see notes)
Republic
+ 1 Hap, -1or more Corr , war effects (see notes)
Democracy
+2 Hap, war effects: +1 Morale*, -1 or more Corr (see notes)
Despotism
+ 1 Centr, 0 to -2 Corr, 0 to -2 Hap (see notes)
Monarchy
-1 Tax, + 1 or more Dipl*, 0 to -1 Corr, +1 to -1 Hap (see notes)
Totalitarian
+2 Pol, +1 Centr, - 2 Hap, Purge Effects (see notes)

Notes for Government Types:
Tribal Assembly
Is the Default Starting Option for all Civilizations. Can only be used with Tribal or City State organizations. In those, has +2 Happiness modifier. If Civ has 2 or more Cities or Tribes, - Centr modifier equal to number of cities over 2. Means that breakaway cities are virtually certain as you grow.

Republic
This is the ancient type of limited franchise representative government, in which only a small portion of the population has the vote, but the illusion of participation is higher than any other form of government except Democracy and Tribal Assembly. If Republic declares war, +1 Happiness because ‘people’ are behind it. To get the senate or assembly to declare war, however, requires Survival as a Value Priority of 3 or less (less is better), an opponent who is either same size or much smaller, and/or diplomatic provocation (stealing secrets to refusing trade/peace treaty). In peacetime has +1 Happiness normally. If Value = Wealth priority of 3 or more, Corruption factors go up (bribing elected officials, buying elections) as follows: Wealth = 3, Corruption = -1, Wealth = 2, Corruption = -2, Wealth = 1, Corruption = -3. (Assuming - is always Worse, so -3 Corruption is More Corruption than -1)
A Republic can be converted into Despotism or Totalitarian government by Charismatic Leader random event, but it requires very low Happiness levels in the population, and usually results in a period of Anarchy first.

SIDE NOTE: Charismatic Political Leaders won’t come along that often: in fact, at low levels of difficulty you shouldn’t have to worry about Random Events at all. I emphatically Do Not want to turn the game into a conflict between the gamer and Random Evil Events!

Democracy
This is the modern, near-universal franchise form of representative government. Same declare war situation as with Republic, except +2 Happiness (larger franchise, more involvement) if enemy attacks first. If enemy larger by 50% population/cities or more and Survival Value has 2 or less priority, may also get +1 Morale modifer (‘backs to the wall”). This is not certain, but % possibility getting better as enemy gets bigger and Survival Value priority gets lower. Democracy has same Corruption/Wealth relationships as Republic, except that Happiness is -1 at Corruption levels lower than -2. Democracy has the most severe Happiness penalties for Recruitment, dependant on the type of military system used:
Levee in Mass -3
Professional -1
Military Caste -1
Draft -2
These are in addition to the modifiers in the military system itself (see that section)
A Democracy can be converted by Charismatic Leader random event into Totalitarian or Despotism, but either requires very low Happiness levels in the population, and usually results in a period of Anarchy first.

Despotism
This is an alternative Starting Option (random chance or pre-game selection). Every turn in Despotism, computer will check % chance of Despot dying (old age, accident, disease, etc). Result can be Anarchy (no successor) lasting X turns or another Despot, or anarchy followed by conversion or reversion to representative government: Tribal Assembly, Republic, or Democracy. A Despot who maintains high Happiness levels (by allocating resources, building improvements, winning wars, expanding the civ) may transform into Monarchy (founding Dynasty) on his death. Ordinary modifiers under Despotism depend on the Despot’s character, range from 0 to -2 Corruption, 0 to -2 Happiness, but always +1 Centralization. Character is randomly selected by computer and changes everytime Despot dies.Despotism can also come about through Charismatic Leader random event at any time in the game ifcertain other factors (low Happiness) are met in a Republic or Democracy.

Monarchy
Same problem of king dying as with Despot dying, except that Anarchy is triggered only if Random Event=No Heir. This anarchy is ended after x turns with new Dynasty or civ dissolves into Civil War over the succession. Civil War is higher % under Fuedal and Confederation State Organizations, less under Imperial or Federal, neutral under City State or Tribal BUT those two may lead to Separatist (breakaway) cities during the Anarchy period. Character of the Monarch is less important than Character of the Despot since Monarchy is modified by inherent Law, Custom, and Tradition. A Monarch who invests heavily in kingdom, wins wars, constructs Wonders, etc can be rated as Good King with +1 Happiness. This rating carries over a turn or two (up to 10 years) after his death if dynasty is the same (fond memories of Good King X). Monarchy has + Diplomacy with any other Monarchy. Amount of + factor depends on size of Royal family to provide dynastic marraige proposals. If treaty signed using marraige, result may increase Civil War chances on death, since Foreign Heir may show up, splitting the kingdom. Monarchy also requires maintenance of a Court, which sucks off a minimum of -1 Tax. Increasing this can give monarchy a +1 Happiness (Grandeur effect) and +1 Centr if under Fuedal Organization, but after X turns this changes to -2 Happiness (resentment of high taxes to support fops!)

Totalitarian
Totalitarian states can be based on secular (economic) or religious systems of belief. Totalitarian requires Police Support, so gets automatic +2 Police, -2 Happiness, because of stifled initiative and resources going into Police. Totalitarian can change Values or Economic System (even ‘Communist’ Russia toyed with semi-Capitalist economics in Lenin’s New Economic Policy) but may cause Revolt or Anarchy. These can be automatically eliminated with Purge, unique to Totalitarian. Purge automatically returns entire Civ to Good Order, but at cost of X Resources and Population (actual numbers based on random factor plus number and type of Changes attempted and number and size of cities/regions in Anarchy/revolt). Totalitarian also has Centralization effect due to constant stream of orders from the Center.

posted August 13, 1999 01:21                

I've added more to my government post

I think this thread will be over 200

so can anybody help me with values

I'm thinking about having religious, wealth, and knowledge be a three way value

it would be a pie thing that would devide into diffreent portions with 100% total into the three parts

if the number is totally on the power side the value is 100% power or power extremism

so what do people think of my pie idea

it probably should be (following my older slider idea)
knowledge----- (?)
religious-----noonreligious (?)
wealth-----acseticism

maybe a pie that can be divided among all the values (just thought of it)

posted August 13, 1999 08:11                

If version 2 was made because of Maniac critizm, then version 3 is a perfection of ver.2 for Diorodus. Mainly, the need to make structre more realisitc is the goal of this version.

Controled market and CHANGES

One more change to this option, mainly because I accped Diodorus critiria and moved Feudalism to Structure. Therefor, it's not a valid market option any more. In ver 2, the controled market options looked like this:

Feudalism->Protectionism->Colonization

And I change it to:

Local markets->Protectionism->Colonization

This can accurtly show how the European power approroch to market changed over the years ( Diorodus, verefication? ). In the 13th they used "Local markets", of feudalism. People belive that in a feudal states the lord ruled over the land, but kept giving taxs and troops to the king. Not true! The king had almost no power. Only when needed, did the lords give tribute and soldiers to the king, like in the time of the Crusades. "Local market" were used when there was no nation, and each market ( city ) was a local, standalone market. ( 13th and 14h mainly, but also before that )
As the nation grew and connection to other nations was firmed, the Kings used a different economic way to keep control over their markets. Because forgien trade invaded the land, uniting the local markets of wide-spread cities and villages, the king started using extreamly high import taxes to keep trade at bay, strengthen the local industry and maintain order of the markets. ( 15th and 16th mainly ).
When you consider colonization, you need to think "transnational with an attitude" in mind. The kings, seeing how the Protectionist method ( which limited trade ) harmed them, and as local companies gain extream power by trading with other european powers, simply decided to go into the company buissness. "National" companies were created, that were controlled in-directly by the goverment and financed quite directly by the goverment. Think about a world that "Microsoft" and "IBM belong to the goverment. This was acctully used to supress and break the spirit of controled lands, like India and africa. ( 17th and forward, died out in the early 20th ).

Maniac! Tell me please if those bonuses and minuses are balanced.

Local Markets: +2 Sup, +2 Corr, -2 Eco ( balanced? )
->Protectionism: +2 Center, +2 Sup, +2 Corr, -2 Eco, -1 Urb ( balanced? )
-->Colonization: +3 Center, +2 Sup, +2 Corr, -2 Eco, -2 Hap, -1 Urb ( balanced? )

Structure

First off, Diodorus is right Maniac. Your current Structure sucks. Confedartion is far too similar to CommonWealth, and you need Feudalism is a structre option.
At first, I thought he was wrong. Empire seems wierd to me. "Why not just pick federal and a monarchy!" I thought. I was wrong. I belive diorodus ment by "Empire" to how the old, large empires took over other nations and appoionted an over-seer to rule over them directly. This is, without a doubt, a structure option.
So, let's consider that I suggest:

Feudalism/City state
Confedartion/CommonWealth
Empire
Federal

First off, tribal is silly. Only useful in the first X turns of the game, then uselss. Chunk it out.
Feudalism is a form of nation where, simply put, there is no centeral command. The king in feudal nations was extreamly weak and was mainly for show off. Each area stood alone, ruled by the lord and responisble to only himself. You can see the similariry to city state: either you have a stand-alone city or a stand-alone castle with adjacment areas, it's almost the same. In a feudal state, every region stands-alone, and hold only a limited alligence to the central govermenets. And yes, you can have a democratic/feudal option. I thought about it. Every such small area ( city ) would be a tiny democracty of it's own, electing it's mayor to rule over them. This structre was used in: The older greek empire, where every city was only limitly conntected to Athenas ( until the more powerful goverments came ), Europe in the 13th-15th centaury, and more.

Condfedartion is somewhat similiar to feudalism: every city/region stand by it's own. But the center fedral power is strong, and the local govermenet mass pass taxes and report to the central leader. Consider USA structure, where every nation has it's own goverenor but still needs to pass taxs to the federal goverement and second-in-command to all Federal beauarus ( like the FBI or IRS ). This structure is also fitting to describe the old roman empire, where some elected nations were giving autonomical power but still needed to pass tribute to the rome.

Empire: a strong federal power that delegted the responisbly of every city/region to an appionted over-sear that reports directly to the central command.

Federal: clear enough.

Now, look how those options complete one another:

Feudal: localized power, no central power.
Confedartion: localized power, reports to central command.
Empire: limited localized power, reports to central command.
Federal: no localized power, all power belongs to the goverment.

If any section is best describted with a Slider bar, this is it, when feudal: +Hap, +Corr, -Tax, -Pol, Federal: +Tax, +Pol, -Hap, -Corr.
Reasoning is simple: the more power the local power holds, the happier the citizen will be since it's local problems are more likly to be sorted out. Also, with delegated power it's much easier to control over large empires. But, the more distinct the local area is from central gov, the less likly he would like to pay taxes or accept their authority: thats why the -Tax, -Pol.

But since Maniac doesn't like slider bars, this is what I suggest:

posted August 13, 1999 09:11             

I haven't gone through ALL FOUR PAGES of posts, but I will try. I put this outline together when I was looking at a post by The Joker. It approaches SE from the outlook that a change in government means a change in power. I know that all of us would like total control of our civs, so don't flame me on that point. The schema needs some work, so I would ask you to take a look at it and tell me what you think.

MAJOR REVISION 1.1

A note before I go on, I am of the opinion that each city should be taken as being composed of a single culture and religion. Dividing up a city into different cultures and Religions adds a level of complexity that IMO does not add to game play. I also believe that government (organizational and economic) forms should actually CHANGE how we govern our civilizations and not be changes in name only.

Definitions:
Culture - the attitudes of militaristic, perfectionistic, etc, on a -10 to 10 scale instead of -1 to 1
Assimilation - the slow change of a conquered city's attitudes to match that of the empire's.
Discontent - a cumulative measure of the unhappiness of a city

I may need to add different definitions as I see people's comments.

There would be three parameters related to the governing of the civ:

Government Form - how I interact with the people
Organizational Form - how I interact with my cities
Economic Form - how I manage my economy

GOVERNMENT FORM: TRIBAL; MONARCHY; REPUBLIC; COMMUNIST; THEOCRACY; DEMOCRACY

TRIBAL - You are the Lord of your civilization and control:
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
Diplomacy
Military (restricted by Organizational Form)
Direction of research
taxes
Organizational Forms: Restricted to Tribal only.
Economic Forms: ???
Benefits: little corruption when composed of one civilization;
Restrictions: finances are unsure, cities may withdraw money at will for their own projects;

MONARCHY - You are absolute ruler of your civilization and control:
diplomacy
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
military (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
direction of research
taxes (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
Organizational Forms: all
Economic Forms: ?????
Benefits: increased cohesion of empire, compared to Tribal; central treasury
Restrictions: discontent may develop in conquered civilizations

REPUBLIC - You are Speaker of your civilization's Parliament and control:
diplomacy (Parliament must ratify treaties and declare wars)
military
Subject to Parliament's approval
direction of research
values
religious attitude
Parliament controls (but considers proposals by the Speaker):
taxes
Organizational Forms: Feudal, Provincial, City-state
Economic Forms: ?????
Benefits: central treasury; happiness +1; discontent slower to develop
Restrictions: loss of total control; discontent increases each time the Speaker acts as Tiebreaker in a vote, goes down in majority votes

THEOCRACY - You are the religious head of your civilization and control:
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
diplomacy (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
military (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
direction of research
taxes (may be restricted by Organizational Form)
Organizational Forms: all
Economic Forms: ????
Benefits: central treasury; corruption minimal in "loyal" cities; happiness +2 in all loyal cities;
Restrictions: You must choose a religion and that AI becomes your "parliament" if you
choose the Centralized Organizational Form, otherwise only those cities with that
particular religion are represented in parliament; parliament may usurp control of any area
if it appears that you are not being true to the cause; happiness -2 in all "other" cities
in your empire

DEMOCRACY - You are the President of your civilization and control:
diplomacy (Parliament must ratify treaties and declare wars)
military
Parliament controls (but considers Presidential proposals):
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
direction of research
taxes
Organizational Forms: PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL; FEUDAL; CITY-STATE; TRIBAL
Benefits: central treasury; happiness +2; discontent slowest to develop
Restrictions: military actions that are not declared wars, will lower happiness temporarily

COMMUNIST - You are chairman of the communist assembly and you control:
values (knowledge, power, mores, etc.)
religious attitude
diplomacy (assembly must ratify treaties)
military
direction of research
taxes
Organizational Forms: Feudal, Provincial, City-state
Economic Forms: SOCIALIST - all existing corporations are liquidated first.
Benefits: If another communist country goes into REVOLT moving military units into that country, to quell the rebellion is allowed and not an act of war.
Restrictions: All food is distributed equally to each city w/waste and corruption level.


ORGANIZATIONAL FORM: CENTRALIZED; PROVINCIAL; FEDERAL; FEUDAL; CITY-STATE; TRIBAL


CENTRALIZED - No representation by the people.
Benefits: assimilation of conquered/absorbed peoples fastest; centralized military; perceived strength in diplomacy +1;
Restrictions: corruption increased upon increasing distance from capital, but can be
controlled with Governor's Residences;

PROVINCIAL - One representative per city a population over 10.
Benefits: centralized military; happiness +1 in represented cities; corruption slope lower than in centralized form; corruption in non-represented cities depends upon distance to nearest represented city
Restrictions: discontent in unrepresented cities can turn into a full-blown civil war;

FEDERAL - Each population point has a representative in Parliament.
Benefits: no possibility of city revolt during wartime; corruption slope lower than Provincial;
Restrictions: vulnerable to revolt from city discontent; city may hold militia separate from central military;

FEUDAL - One representative in Parliament per city.
B: very alluring to minor civs; corruption level in all cities (except the capital, which is lower)
R: the autonomy (control of trade, production, military & payment of taxes) and assimilation of each city depends upon the relative strength of the capital to each city; corruption moderate; each city can independantly control its military

CITY-STATE - One representative per population unit.
B: most alluring to minor or small civilizations; corruption low near the capital
R: as Leader of the civ, you may put items on the city's (other than the capital) production que, but the city governor can delay production indefinitely; assimilation stagnant; corruption starts going up after 10 squares (large map, Civ II) distance from capital; each city can independantly control its military;

TRIBAL - One representative per population unit.
Benefits: corruption low as long as the civ is homogeneous, increases with each additional conquered city and then decreases to a new (higher) low;
Restrictions: cities past 5(civII large map) units distance from capital can be lost to independence; each city can declare war without Leader's approval even on another member city (loss of the capital costs the treasury, not actual loss of the city in these situations);

ECONOMIC FORM: MERCANTILISM; SOCIALIST; FASCIST; KEYNES'; FREE MARKET

Economic Structures:
Barter, Currency, Manoralism, Banking, , Corporate, Labor Union, Communism

MERCANTILISM - internal and external trade is controlled by the state

SOCIALIST - production and trade are controlled by the state
the state dictates what is controlled, either by corporations or by the city

FASCIST - production is controlled by the state, production done within the civ is dictated by the state

KEYNES' - production and trade are monitored and only controlled by the state when necessary (ie. war)

FREE MARKET - the government has no say in production(by corporations) or trade

I don't know a lot about economics, so any suggestions here are welcome. I am working on an idea that works in various suggestions in the Economics thread.


Note: this idea is partially based upon the idea that if a civ is conquered it can attempt
to found a Government in Exile in a friendly civ. The government in exile prevents the
assimilation of its former capital and lasts until all former cities have been assimilated
and the capital is razed.



Below are Society Types that were suggested. I wanted to comment that they appear to me to be more descriptions of what kind of society results from a government choice than something to choose. One can hardly immagine an Absolute Monarchy (MONARCHY/CENTRALIZED/SOCIALIST) that could be described as an "open" society.
Society Types:
Police State, Open, Corporate, IngSoc, Welfare

posted August 13, 1999 11:37                

All your choices are balanced on their own, its just when you begin to make combinations that it becomes unbalanced.
BTW, try to limit yourself to 2 bonuses and 1 big or 2 small penalties. For modern or near future 3 bonuses and 2 penalties.
The only exception is Economy. That should always have big penalties.

But I suggest we determine which choices we use and then give thim effects.

Oh about Morale and the senate. I found a solution, but it would delete something 'holy'.
ie + is good and - is bad (see diplomacy).

First notice I have renamed some things to avoid misunderstandings.

Centralization -> Production
Nationalism -> Reconnaissance (only problem is that giving Conviction (=religious defense) to that would be strange, have to find a new factor for that)
Corruption -> Organization, Efficiency?
Morale -> Experience

I would edit the Diplomacy factor.

+Diplomacy = more senate restrictions, more trade bonuses
-Diplomacy = no senate restrictions, worse relationships

What so you think about it, Diodorus?
Then Mercantilism (with India companies so trade bonuses) should have a diplomacy (rename it?) bonus and survival a negative (senate less important).

And yes Harel a senate is necessary. In SMAC there is no senate and I easily conquer the world on Free Market (~Civ2 Democracy).

Have you got ENCARTA 98? Look at Colbertism = extreme of Mercantilism/Protectionism. I would take this as an example to make a Mercantilism economy.
The only problem is that the different language versions of Encarta contain different things. Perhaps the Israelian version has less details about Colbertism.

I think you should unite Mercantilism and Colonization.

Yes I know perfectly that real Banking only existed since renaissance Italy. But there has to be an early +2 Eco economy. So I cheated a little and meant Roman argentarii and Greek trapezitai.
Perhaps just rename Banking to Capitalism?

Theben :

You're right. There has been a idea to let have each citizen a different flag. Then the population icon problem is solved.

Diodorus Sicilus :

Isn't this better :
Levee in mass
->Military Caste
-->Professional

You said yourself the military caste is supported by amateurs = simple mass soldiers. So I think Caste is the evolution of Levee.
And when in modern times a military (professional) caste disappears, the logic consequence would be Professional.

Drafts is ok. Harel, Reserve is an automatic consequence of having drafts and Volunteers is automatic if you have professional. I suggest some name changement.

I would also include a Mercenary option.

About that diplomacy bonus with monarchy.
In SMAC if you had eg Democracy you had better relationship with the Peacekeepers but worse with the Hive (communist).
I would extent this. With every civ that has the same goverment type as you, you have better relations.

So not only a diplomacy bonus between monarchies, but also between democracies etc...

Totally different gov types should give a diplomacy penalty.
So 'democratic' Napoleon against monarch Europe becomes possible.

I think you underestimate my factors. A lot of your special abilities of SE choices can be represented by one of my factors.

Oh Diodorus before I forget it. Harel and I had a little discussion about the Minoans. Can I ask some questions?

1) Had Minoa a big or small land army?
2) Had Minoa a big or small sea war fleet?
3) Did the Minoans trade with foreign nations and if so, with who?

posted August 13, 1999 13:54                

This is an idea that I've been bouncing around in my skull for a little while now. There needs to be a standardization of how SE effects, Improvements, and Technology interact. Several days (& 1 1/2 pages ago, yeesh!) I posted the beginning of this idea, this has minor changes:

ECONOMY would be a % that is added/subtracted from trade.
EFFICIENCY: A % reduction/increase in corruption(/waste?) in the city.
SUPPORT: Each city would have a base SUPPORT % (10-20%?). This % is subtracted (added if a - value) from the combined cost of all maintenance of units (units would have production & money support costs, possibly food too). SE choices increase/decrease the % modifier.
MORALE should different than the EXPERIENCE bonuses provided to units. Morale would be a small % bonus/penalty independent of Experience, but does combine with it to influence combat. FE, in SMAC, if you attack from a city w/ a Children's Creche you get +25% to attack, or you can have your % modifier's halved due to low Morale. This is Morale. Experience is the actual level of troop prepardness, training, etc. Experience affects att/def/LASS strength but Morale affects att/def/LASS AND Experience.
EXPERIENCE: Only a minimal bonus/penalty should be possible with this SE. Most experience should come from training (and this only to a point; maybe up to hardened as SMAC?) & actual combat (all the way to elite status). Again, a % would be applied as in SMAC, but it would be in smaller increments.
POLICE represents the controls you can exert on your people. It adds to your
happiness rating after all other happiness factors have been applied, but cannot increase happiness to a positive rating.
GROWTH is affected by happiness and many other factors, including food. It's a % increase/decrease in the city's growth rate.
ENVIRONMENT: A % reduction/increase in pollution output. At certain (+) levels it can add a % to trade from wilderness squares, however a Environment SE choice should also be accompanied by a loss of Economy & Growth.
SECURITY: A % bonus/penalty to enemy espionage missions that affect you.
ESPIONAGE: A % bonus/penalty to your espionage missions.
DIPLOMACY: A % bonus/penalty to your Reputation vs. other civs.
INDUSTRY is so powerful and easily abused in SMAC it should not have any SE modifiers. It may only be modified by technology & City Improvements, as a % bonus(/penalty?) to a city's Resource and Labor output.
RESEARCH: as SMAC, but with smaller % increments.
HAPPINESS as described by me elsewhere.

These are the Civil Effects-CE (plus any others that you may wish to add). Each +1 or -1 correlates to a +5% or -5% change in the total of the related CE, with the exception of Happiness, +/- 2%, because it is so powerful. At certain levels each category may have other special abilities (like immunity to spy bribes; PROBE in SMAC). How they interact:

Social Engineering: As per SMAC; each SE has +/- to several CEs.
Technology: Usually adds +'s to 1 or more CE's, but may penalize some.
City Improvements: Depends on method used. If like civ2, each building adds a large amount to it's CE(s); i.e. a marketplace would add +10 to Economy & Happiness (+50%). If like Star Trek: Birth of the Federation, each building adds +1, +2, or +3 (or -) to it's given category, and you build several buildings of each type in each city (obviously at a lower cost than now).

In the SE screen you could see your civ's overall effectiveness in each category (as SMAC). In addition, each city would need a button that would pop up a window, showing what it's own CE modifiers are.

posted August 13, 1999 16:29                

Once more Maniac.
Mercantlism is a very small branch of Protectionism. It was used for only 150 years by two nations. Please read my previoys post about what Mercantlism is.

Merctanlism and colonization CAN'T be united: they worked in different time frames. Mercantlism was used by the france and england on one another in the 16th and 17th centaury, and colonization started in the late 17th till the early 20th centaury.

Colbertism was mercantlism. Mercantilsm is an economical "game", or "cheat", which was invernted by colbert.

Once more Maniac. Mercantlism is a very narrow field of economy and doesn't deserve to be included. I stick with:

Local markets -> Protectionism -> Colonization

BTW, can I kill you? You said, and I quote:

"the options you have are not balanced toghther...".

Well blimey man! How many times did I ask you to help me with giving real, balanced numbers? It's YOUR modifactor anyway, and I don't have a clue on how to balance them out. Every time that I try you just laugh and say they are not balanced. Arraggh!

reserve

posted August 13, 1999 17:04                

I think your post identifies another aspect of what I've viewed as complexity. In truth, there are hundreds of factors that determine how well societies perform the tasks that their members want them to perform. Our goal in making a game is to distill those down to a level that is easily comprehensible so that we can have the game experience of manipulating the factors to see whether we can build a successful society. My gripe with most of the systems I've seen is that they (1) do not distill the factors enough, resulting in too many CE factors, (2) disaggregate factors that are really the same, or (3) combine factors that are really different.

I would strive to limit the CE factors to nine or ten because I think that too many more than that would spawn confusion. Note, however, that my proposals to remove factors from SE means they would leave the game entirely. In many cases, I feel they might be handled better in a different context.

That said, the heart of the civ games is the conversion of three inputs (trade, minerals, and food) into six outputs (population, production, pollution, research, luxuries, and money). Two other factors (efficiency and happiness) limit the player's ability to convert the inputs into outputs. Combat is also important in the Civ games, and is typically influenced by the experience level of the combatant units.

Several people have suggested additions to this matrix -- for example, that SE choices should affect emigration levels and through that growth, or that SE choices should affect a civ's success in interaction with other civs. I think that if we're trying to suggest a new model for Civ3, we should to evaluate each addition in terms of whether the complexity it adds is worthwhile.

I'm running out of time now, so I'll only address one or two points. I don't think a diplomacy factor adds much to the game. Historically, a government's diplomatic success is more closely tied with the commonality of interests (both in terms of culture and real-world objectives) and past behavior. I think that the reputation system in Civ2 and the SMAC system of certain SE choices not interacting are adequate to determine diplomatic success.

I don't think that adding immigration as a factor determining population growth would be a valuable addition, either. Most importantly, society choices by themselves (other than genocide) have rarely generated emigration. Rather, wealth and happiness levels -- which are already in the game -- are primary engines of emigration. While allowing for movement among civs would make the game more interesting, I think that a formula generating inter-civ population changes based on relative happiness and wealth levels would achieve this without the added complexity of an emigration factor.

posted August 13, 1999 17:08                

To make sure there is no problem with understanding my factors while making a new model and also to make a summary for Bell, I'll repost and update my factors here. Comments are welcome. The effects of the factors may change when the maxima and minima of the new model are definitely determined.

1) Police

Having a purge means all people become content for ten turns, similar to SMAC nerve staple.
A purge is an atrocity, especially in modern times.

In all Civ versions I wondered why airplanes caused unhappiness. The reason a manual gave me was that it was because the pilots had to do practice flights and were always in the air. That caused unhappiness. Is that a reason??????
I think airplanes cause less unhappiness.
As long as a democracy(Western countries) is bombarding another nation(Serbia, Iraq)no problem. It's only when they want to send ground troops and the boys of the country itself can get killed, there comes trouble. That's why I think Air units should cause less unhappiness.

With allies I mean simple allies.
With pact nations I mean civs that are in your multistate-coallition(eg NATO, probably possible in Civ3). There should be at least 4 civs to have a coallition.

There should be a council proposal à la SMAC possible to or not to allow nuke use.

About territory. I think even if there aren't sea bases, there should be sea borders. 1 square away in ancient times after the discovery of the Sail. Two in renaissance after the discovery of the Compass. Three in modern times.

Theben, since you haven't got a concrete happiness indicator, I'll still use unhappy citizens=drones.

+3 : 3 units can act as police. Police effect doubled.

+2 : 3 units can act as police, each keeping one proletarian content.

+1 : 2 units can act as police

0 : 1 unit can act as police

-1 : 1 police; can't have a purge.

-2 : no police and no purging (also no purging for all lower police rates)

-3 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
All units in allied teritory never cause unhappiness.
Every unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.

-4 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
All units in allied teritory never cause unhappiness.
Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies' territory causes one drone.
Every air unit beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory cause one drone.

-5 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Every land or sea unit in your allies' territory, but not in one of their cities, cause one drone.
All air units beyond the first in your allies' territory cause one drone.
Every land or sea unit out of your or your allies' teritory cause two drones.
All air units beyond the first out of your or your allies' territory cause one drone.

-6 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Every unit in allied territory, but not in one of their cities, cause one drone.
Land and sea units out of your or your allies' territory cause two drones.
Air units out of your or your allies' territory cause one drone.

-7 : Units in your territory or in an allied city never cause unhappiness.
Units not in your territory cause two drones.
(this also counts for all lower police rates)

-8 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
1/2 must agree.

-9 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
3/4 must agree.

-10 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
All but one member must agree.

-11 : You (or your senate,depends on Internal Control rate; later more about this) must ask permission to your pact nations to send ground or nuclear (if allowed by some agreement) units to an enemy.
Everyone must agree!!!!

2) Support

I think units should have a different support. Transports or Explorers won't need as much support as Battleships or Knights. This is easy to do with the x10 system.

For every +Support, one less resource is needed to support the unit.
For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with +4 Support it would only require 6 resources.

For every -Support, one more resource is needed to support the unit.
For example, if a Knights requires normally 10 resources to support, with -4 Support it would only require 14 resources.

For -1 Support and every higher Support rate, when you found a new city you get 10 labor/resources for free.

3) Production

For every +Production, you produce 10% more food and also 10% more labor when producing non-military units, city improvements or wonders of the world

For every -Production, you produce 10% less food and also 10% less labor when producing non-military, city improvements or wonders of the world

Notes :
1)Using everythingx10 model
2)So a city normally producing 60 Food and 20 Resources should produce 72 Food and 24 Minerals with +2 Production.
3)Other ways to increase Food or Resource production can be Terrain Improvements (Railroad and Farm) and Technologies :
eg in the beginning of the game an irrigation yields +9 Food.
-Pottery : +1 Food for Irrigation TI.
-Horse Plowing : +1 " " " "
-Crop Rotation : +1 " " " "

4) Corruption

The higher your corruption rate, the less trade you loose by cities far away from your capital.(so no waste in Civ3)

The formula used could be as in Civ2 :

Corruption = ((Trade x Distance) x3) / (20 x (4 + Corruption))

where :

Corruption = your SE Corruption rate

Distance = the city's distance from your capital (diagonal squares count as 1.5 squares when figuring the Distance)
The maximum value of Distance = 36.

Problem with this formula could be that it is independent from the map size.
On a huge map there is still as much corruption as on a tiny map. On a huge map there should be less corruption. I think giving a maximum distance is too less to solve the problem.

Solution?

The # of map squares on a normal map was 50 x 80 = 4000 squares.

So perhaps the formula could be :

Corruption = ((Trade x (Distance / 4000 x # of map squares)) x3) / (20 x (4 + Corruption)) / 4000 x # of map squares

Bell, don't forget to include this formulae in the summary WITH their problems.

5) Urbanization

1)This determines how much your people tend to go from the countryside to the cities = their willingness to live in a huge city(in other words your population limit) and it determines how much rows must be filled to let the city grow(similar to SMAC).

2) I think cities should continue to grow even if there is no aquaduct or similar building. My Urbanization is based on it. The drawback would be that all people not having sufficient clean water(=Aquaduct, Sewer System) or living space(=Apartment Blocks, Arcology) become Revolutionaries = very unhappy citizens. Too much Revolutionaries can cause a city to revolt and form a new civ.

3) city size 7 or 8 : Aquaduct needed
12/14 Sewer System( not the modern one that came much too early in Civ2, but something like the Roman Cloaca = sewerage.
20 : Apartment Block
30 : Arcology
40 : Super Arcology? or perhaps there should be a building for 40, to similate population pressure.

4) I think in the early parts of the game, so I mean until the Modern Age, population boom should be impossible. This is as much cheating as ICS. So the pop boom problem should also be solved.

5) A granary in Civ3 should be like in Civ2, and not like a Children's Creche, causing +2 Urbanization, in SMAC. Otherwise you could get pop boom early in the game.

+6 : +6 Population limit; Cities have a population boom every turn if sufficient Food is available in your city/region.
+5 : +5 Population limit; only 5 rows must be filled to let a city increase in size.
...
0 : normal
...
-5 : -5 pop limit; 15 rows must be filled.
-6 : -6 pop limit; no population growth.

6) Evangelism

1) Evangelism determines how easy it for a Clerics to convert population (and units?) to your faith.

2) If a civ has a lower Evangelism rate, his cities become automatically converted to your religion, if he has a trade route with one of your cities (or simply by geographical location?). If the capital is converted you get a better relationship. If that civ attacks you, the citizens of the converted city become unhappier = lower happiness rate...

3) Your Evangelism rate determines how long it takes for conquered cities to assimilate to your culture and cause less happiness.
In SMAC it was 50 turns. For every +Evangelism you have more than the city of the previous owner, the city needs 10 less turns to assimilate.
If you have a lower Evangelism rate, the city doesn't adapt. Means more unhappiness and increases the likelyness of revolting and forming a new civ.
If the citizens of the conquered city follow your state religion, they are immediately assimilated.

4) Evangelism affects your attack strenght(=evangelism) in religious debate/combat. Per +Evangelism you get +12.5% in combat. Per -Evangelism -12.5%.
The happiness of the population also affects the strenght.
Aristocratian : +25%
Worker : normal
Proletarian : -25%
Revolutianary : -50%
Animist : -100%
Animists are citizens without an advanced religion.

5)Your religious defense(=conviction) is determined by Nationalism.

6) Can't say numbers. Religious debate still busy on the Religion thread.

7) Numbers are relative. Means the effects are also determined by the other civ's Evangelism rate.

+? : Conversion easier; faster than normal assimilation

-? : Your population gets converted; no assimilation if lower culture

7) Reconnaissance

The Iron Curtain Wonder makes emigration impossible and renders your civilization completely immune to any diplomat/spy action.

+6 : No emigration possible
+5 Spy/Diplomat Morale
no bribing possible
Spy/Diplomat have 100% chance of success
-75% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions

+5: Very very low emigration
+5 Spy/Diplomat Morale
no bribing
-75% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
very very high success rate

+4 : Very low emigration
+4 Spy/Diplomat Morale
no bribing
-50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
very high success rate

+3 : Low emigration
+3 Spy/Diplomat Morale
+75% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
-50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
high succes rate

+2 : Lower emigration
+2 Spy/Diplomat morale
+50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
-25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
higher success rate

+1 : Slightly lower emigration
+1 Spy/Diplomat Morale
+25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
-25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
slightly higher succes rate

0 : normal

-1 : -1 Spy/Diplomat Morale
-25% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
+25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
slightly lower succes rate

-2 : -2 Spy/Diplomat Morale
-50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
+25% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
lower succes rate

-3 : -3 Spy/Diplomat Morale
-50% cost of enemy Spy/Diplomat actions
+50% cost of your Spy/Diplomat actions
low success rate

9) Experience

Necessary for this social factor to work, is off course that the Morale distinction of SMAC is used.
I don't like the word Commando to express the experience level of a unit, so these are my proposed names.
Very Green
Green
Disciplined
Hardened
Trained
Veteran
Elite
Perhaps hardened and trained should be switched.

This SE factor does not determine the Morale of Spies and Diplomats.

In the modern age there should be atrocities like SMAC for certain war crimes or crimes against your population(Purge), but high Experience levels cause less reactions from the world.

+5 : world opinion does not punish you for atrocities because they don't expect anything else from you; +5 Experience
+4 : +4 Experience; no world opinion punishment
+3 : +3 Experience; less world opinion punishment
+2 : +2 Experience
+1 : +1 Experience
0 : normal Experience
-1 : -1 Experience
-2 : -1 Experience; positive combat modifiers halved
-3 : -2 Experience; + modifiers halved
-4 : -3 Experience; + modifiers halved

9) Research

Without SE changes you can set your amount of trade used for science to 70%.

I said on the other SE thread that I want simultaneous research in each category. Therefore you should be able to allocate a certain amount of your research point to one category. Categories should be Economic, Military, Academic, Social, Applied. Normally this should be 50%.

+8 : +80% Research; you may set your trade allocated to science at 100%; you may allocate 100% of your accumulated science to one category.
...
+5 : +50% Research; trade 100%; category 100%
+4 : +40% Research; trade 100%; category 90%
+3 : +30 Res; trade 100; cat 80
+2 : +20 Res; trade 90; cat 70
+1 : +10 Res; trade 80; cat 60
0 : normal science accumulation; trade 70%; category 50%
-1 : -10% Research; trade 60%; category 40%
-2 : -20 Res; trade 50; cat 30
-3 : -30 Res; trade 40; cat 20
-4 : -40 Res; trade 30; cat 20

10) Economy

In SMAC +1 Economy was +1 Energy/base. That may be a nice bonus in the beginning of the game. But later in the game it means nothing. The x10 system can correct this.

I give +30 trade/square to +5 Economy. Some might say that makes it's too hard for not-Free Market civs. I disagree.
1)The Superhighways improvement in Civ2 did the same thing. Yielding a bonus to Republics and Democracies, but not to all other govs. x10 solves that problem and also gives a +50% trade/square to not-free market civs.
2)I included more SE choices giving an Economy bonus, so even not-free market civs can get the +10 trade/square.

Civilization's capitals should get +10 trade.

+7 : +24 trade/square
+6 : +22 trade/square
+5 : +20 trade/square
+4 : +14 trade/square
+3 : +12 trade/square
+2 : +10 trade/square
+1 : +2 trade/square
0 : normal trade production
-1 : -1 trade/square; -10 trade in capital
-2 : -2 trade/square; -10 trade in capital
-3 : -3 trade/square; -10 trade in capital
-4 : -4 trade/square; -10 trade in capital

11) Environment

There should be three types of pollution : industrial, nuclear and population pollution

Environment can increase or decrease industrial and population population.
Unfortunately the Civ2 formulae don't take a pollution modifier in account, so they can't be used in Civ3.

Environment should also increase or decrease the likelyness of plagues, diseases, natural disasters, etc…

+? : less pollution; less natural disruption
...
0 : normal pollution rate
...
-? : more pollution; more natural disruption

12) Happpiness

Happiness affects the addition of extra unhappy citizens because a civ has exceeded a certain number of cities.
The Happiness formula works as follows a bit as in SMAC:

City Limit = (8 - Difficulty) x (6 + Happiness rate) x MapRoot / 2

Where :

Difficulty = Player's Difficulty level (0-5)
Happiness = SE Happiness rate
MapRoot = Square Root of # map squares / Square Root of 3200

For each city a civ builds or conquers in excess of this number, one additional unhappy citizen will appear at some random city somewhere in the civ.

Note I used (6 + Happiness rate). This '6' is open for changement cause that number has to be the positive of the most negative SE Happiness rate possible in the model to prevent getting a negative number in the City Limit.

As an added bonus and penalty I would give +4 Happiness one extra happy citizen for each 4 citizens and -4 Happiness one extra unhappy citizen for each 4 citizens.

Normally you should be able to set the amount of trade you allocate for luxuries on a maximum of 50%. Happiness rate should affect this. So if you have eg a Happiness rate of -4, it should be impossible for you to mend the unhappy citizens by high luxury rates.

…
+5 : one extra happy citizen for each 4 citizens; luxury rate can be set at 100%
+4 : one extra happy citizen for each 4 citizens; 90%
+3 : 80%
+2 : 70%
+1 : 60%
0 :50%
-1 : 40%
-2 : 30%
-3 : 20%
-4 : one extra unhappy citizen for each 4 citizens; 10%
-5 : one extra unhappy citizen for each 4 citizens; you can't use any luxuries
…

13) Taxes

Normal amount of trade you can allocate to Taxes is 70%.

If you have eg a tax income of 20 gold and a Tax rate of +2, you get 22 Gold.

...
+3 : +30 tax; tax allocation 100%
+2 : +20 tax; tax 90
+1 : +10 tax; tax 80
0 : normal Tax income; tax 70
-1 : -10 tax; tax 60
-2 : -20 tax; tax 50
-3 : -30 tax; tax 40
-4 : -20 tax; tax 30
…

14) Internal Control

Be aware of this factor! Not all the negatives are bad!

The commerce bonus should increase the value and the profit of trade routes.

…
+4 : +50% Conviction (= Religious defense)
+3 : +37% Conviction
+2 : +25% Conviction
+1 : +12% Conviction
0 : normal
-1 : -12% Conviction; +1 commerce bonus; 25% chance that the Senate signs a truce or a treaty and 25% chance that the Senate forbids you to sneak attack an enemy.
-2 : -25% Conviction; +2 commerce bonus; 50% Senate restrictions
-3 : -37% Conviction; +3 commerce bonus; 75% Senate restrictions
-4 : -50% Conviction; +4 commerce bonus; 100% Senate restrictions
…

15) Military Industry

This factor affects military unit production the same way Production affects non-military unit, city improvement and wonder production.

posted August 13, 1999 18:36                

Unhappy citizens are more likekly to convert faster in a low evanglism rating, like Athiest or Religos freedom.
Also, you tended to give some modifactors too many bonuses/minuses. It's better to have more modifactors then ones you are not clear what you are getting from them.
Here is what I suggest:

1. Police: as stated. ( Pol )

2. Support: as stated. ( Sup )

3. Production: as stated. ( Pro )

4. Corruption: as stated. ( Corr )

5. Urbinzation ( growh sounds better ): as stated. ( Urb )

6. Conviction: only applied to the religon section. Strong religons gain a bonus. Higher ratings make you more immune to bribing and clerk convertions. ( Con )

7. Culture: bonus to democracy and other free-mind options. Culture gives you four things:
A. Decide how fast new cities convert to you.
B. Culture difference is measured in trade bonus. For example, if you got +2 Cult, and you trade with a -2 Cult, you gain +4 gold for every caravans. However, you don't get a minus.
C. Replace Internal control: high culture rating reduce the level of senate intervention.
D. High culture rating lower the likehood of revoultions. ( Cult )

8. Espionage: For spy morale, and strike costs. Also decide your defence against spying. Like probe on SMAC. ( Esp )

9. Expreince: as stated ( Exp )

10. Research: as stated ( Res )

11. Economy: as stated ( Eco )

12. Enviroment: I would also give a bonus to food-based tiles ( fields and farms ). ( Env )

13. Happiness: as stated ( Hap )

14. Taxes: as stated ( Tax )

15. Commerce: since sometimes you can have a strong trade but poor economy ( colonization ), I suggest a new modifactor that only gives bonus to trade routes. ( Com )

16. Military industry: as stated ( Mil ).

posted August 13, 1999 19:08                

Another ( the thirth?) model tip :
3)Restrict your bonuses and penalties to + or - 2. You have a lot of + and - 3's.
The only exceptions with me, I think, are the very extremes Transnational and Communism.
An exception to this rule is Police negatives. They may be given to +2 Eco in large numbers.

What do you think of factor 14 and 15? Ok?

"BTW, can I kill you?"

Now I certainly don't want to be a cadet under you .

Local Markets.

A better name could be Fairs. These aren't local markets, but they are the first non-manorial market type after Norman invasions reduced economy to Manorial. Or perhaps something that's called in Dutch and/or German 'hanze' or 'ganze'.
Is that right Diodorus?

Manorial/Local
->Fair

BTW, these fairs weren't government controlled as far as I know, but by g/hanzes.
So state-organized protectionism/mercantilism is a totally new form of economy.

Mercantilism

Simply explained, because they thought in that time that international trade was static, the goal of Mercantilism was to deprive trade of other nations and so have a better part in the trade themself.

Mercantilism was from the 16th to the 18th century.
It was not only between France and England. Actually, the victim of the French and English mercantilism were the Netherlands.

It was to increase the welfare and the state's power.

Protection of own industry, agriculture and fishery was important to get a good export-position and so get a part of the American gold that came to Europe by Spain.

Mercantilists tried to decrease import and increase export.

Mercantilism was a beginning COLONIAL economy. It wanted to improve the colonies and increase colonial trade.

Ok, it wasn't the real colonial economy system, but the precursor.

The economical system was used more than just 150 years and more than by just 2 countries.
BTW, considering that Europe was then the centre of the world and the Europeans controlled a large part of the world, the system was very important in history and must be included in the model.

Under the mercantilist era the Indian Companies were founded, which mean the beginning of the colonial economy.

How else would you describe the economies between 1500 and 1800? Protectionism? Fine, then just recall it to Mercantilism and I'm satisfied.

It's much more than "cheating" and exporting some mass goods.

My new beginning with mistakes and again too much choices and too little ->'s factorless for the moment model based on Harel and Diodorus

Got the title?

Government

has too much ->'s

Tribal Assembly
->Early Republic
-->New Republic(Dutch Republic and Italian City States)
--->Democracy
---->True Democracy

Despotism/Dictatorship
->Monarchy/Dynasty (to not let appear the name Monarchy too much)
-->Empireship/Absolute Monarchy
--->Totalitarianism

Don't know where to place Parliamentary Monarchy. Somewhere between Monarchy and Republic.
Also don't know where to place States General.

These are important monarchy forms where the nobles and other economical classes had larger influence.

Perhaps after Monarchy there should be two directions : the absolute one and the parliamentary one.

Monarchy
->Empireship/Absolute
-->Totalitarianism

Monarchy
->States General
-->Parliamentary

Economy

has too little ->'s

Barter
->Currency

Capitalist
->Banking
-->Free Market
--->Transnational

Manorialism
->Fairs/Hanze

Mercantilism
->Colonial

Planned?
->Communism
-->Utopia

Structure

Harel, I told myself Structure sucked, so I believe you completely when you say it.
Based on Harel's and Diodorus' notes :

City State
->Feudal
Confederate
->Commonwealth
Imperial
->Federal

Or perhaps out of City State there should be two options as out Monarchy there were also two options.

City State
->Feudal

City State
->Confederate
-->Commonwealth

"But since Maniac doesn't like slider bars, this is what I suggest:"

Do you want to use slider bars, Harel?

Values

Hmm... That Value stuff is beginning to make sense now it's explained something better.

Survival
->Power?
Growth/Imperialism
Socialism/Welfare (not Wealthfare)
Wealth
Knowledge

No Environment?

I think these choices are put from most basic to luxurious following Diodorus' ideas.
Survival first and Knowledge on the other edge of the list.

Research

Wise Men
Natural
Humanitarian
Practical
Explorer

Religion

Your list looks good, but I doubt the guys of the Religion thread would agree with it.
Which ***** decided to split Religion and SE?

Army

I'm getting in favor of an Army category.
Would use some Diodorian ideas in it.

Levee in Mass/The People Army
->Drafts
-->Civic Duty (please explain what you mean with this. Switzerland? Everyone has a duty when there comes war?)

Militia
->Volunteer/Conscription?
-->Reserve?

You said that they get a minimal training. Isn't that covered under Basic? I don't really know of this Reserve evolution is good.
So :

Reserve?/Basic? : no pos or neg

Military Caste
Mercenary
Both these could end in...
->Professional

When we agree on a list of SE choices, we can begin discussing the effects.

posted August 13, 1999 19:48                

1. Loyality: Increased mainly by strong religons. ( Loy )
A good loyality:
Increase coversion defence.
Increase the cost of bribing.
Increase your defence against spying.
Decresse emigarion level.

2. Order: increased by strong rulers and strict structure. ( Ord )
A high order ratio does:
Gets extra taxs.
Have better police.
Reduce corruption.

3. Economy: as pre-written.

4. Militarial ( Mil ).
Unite military industry and support. High mil reudce the cost of maintance and increase the cosntruction rate of new units.

5. Productivity ( Pro ) as pre-written.

6. Exprience ( Exp ): act like morale and spies quality ( morale, cost of actions, and chance of success ).

7. Relations ( Relt ): increase profit from trade routes and diplomatic relations.

8. Originality ( Org ): boost reaserch rate.

9. Harmony ( Hrm ): define whatever your people are a harmonic group. Increased by regional structre, democracy and free religons. A good Hrm gives you:
Reduce chance of revoltions.
Increased rate of conversion of captured cities.
A less annoying senate.

10. Happiness ( Hap ): unite happiness bonuses with Urbanization ( Growth ).

So, if connection to my own model:

Version 3 - optional values

Goverement

Anarchy: -3 Hap, -3 Ord

Despotism: +2 Mil, -2 Hap
->Military autocraty: no pos, no neg.
-->Police state: +1 Ord

Dictatorship: +2 Ord, -2 Loy
->Totalarism: +2 Ord, +2 Mil, -2 Loy, -1 Org

Monarchy: +2 Pro, -2 Hrm
->Empireship: +2 Pro, +2 Mil, -2 Hrm, -1 Eco

Lordship: +2 Loy, -2 Org
->Theocracy: +2 Loy, +2 Ord, -2 Org, -1 Exp

Republic: +2 Hrm, -2 Mil
->Democracy: +2 Hrm, +2 Hap, -2 Mil, -1 Exp
-->True Democracy: +3 Hrm, +2 Hap, -2 Mil, -2 Exp

Market

Barter: -1 Eco
->Currency: No pos, no neg.
-->Stock exchange: +1 Eco

Local markets: +2 Ord, -2 Loy
->Protectionism: +2 Ord, +2 Hrm, -2 Loy, -1 Rel
-->Colonization: +3 Ord, +2 Hrm, -2 Loy, -2 Rel

Social: +2 Hap, -2 Eco
->Communism: +2 Hap, +2 Loy, -2 Eco, -1 Ord
-->Utopia: +3 Hap, +2 Loy, -2 Eco, -2 Ord

Banking: +2 Eco, -2 Ord
->Free Market: +2 Eco, +2 Pro, -2 Ord, -2 Mil
-->Transnational: +3 Eco, +2 Pro, -2 Ord, -2 Mil, -2 Hrm

structure

City State/Feudal: +2 Hrm, -2 Loy
Commonwealth/Confedarte: +1 Hrm, -1 Loy
Empire: +1 Loy, -1 Hrm
Federal: +2 Loy, -2 Hrm

Religon

Animism: -2 Org
->Polytheism: no pos, no neg
Loose monotheism: +2 Hap, -2 Hrm
Fundementalism: +2 Mil, -2 Org
Religous freedom: +2 Hrm, -2 Ord
Religous intolerance: +2 Loy, -2 Hap
Atheism: +2 Org, -2 Hrm

Army

Basic: no pos, no neg.

Militia: +2 Hrm, -1 Mil, -1 Exp
->Volunteer: +2 Hrm, -1 Exp

The people army: +2 Mil, -1 Hap, -1 Loy
->Drafts: +2 Mil, -1 Loy
-->Civil duty: +3 Mil, -1 Loy

Mercenery: +2 Exp, -2 Mil
->Trained: +3 Exp, -2 Mil

Values

Survival: +1 Mil, -1 Hap
Power: +2 Mil, +2 Exp, -2 Pro
Knowledge: +2 Org, -2 Rel
Wealth: +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -2 Hrm
Wealthfare: +2 Hap, +2 Hrm, -2 Ord

Research

Wise Men: no pos or neg
Humanitarian: +2 Hrm, -1 Exp, Social Science is +40%
* Practical**: +2 Mil, -2 Org, Military Science is +40%
* Explorer: +2 Org, -1 Hrm, Academic Science is +40%

posted August 13, 1999 19:55                

"A high evanglist rating ( strong religon ) makes the citizen become loyal to you faster?! huh?"

Sorry, you're right. But do you agree that there shouldn't be an assimilation period when the citizens of the conquered city already have your relgion?

"Also, you tended to give some modifactors too many bonuses/minuses."

Yes, I know I gave some too many negatives and positives.
The maxima and minima were based on my first model and also on the idea that civs have some predetermined factors as in SMAC. This has been changed by now.

Determining for definite what the effects of the various rates are can only happen after the model is definite and little can change.
So I left some playing room.
Later I can change it easily.
eg Reconnaissance/Espionage can easily be reduced to 4 + rates.
The -8 to -11 police factors can just be scrapped.
Also +6 and +7 Eco.
...

"It's better to have more modifactors then ones you are not clear what you are getting from them."

Yes I agree completely. But there are some guys with a bad memory who can only remember 9 to 10 factors.

I suggest we ignore such imposters and we make a model together with Diodorus.

5) Urbanization

I'm willing to rename it to Growth.
But the name Growth doesn't sound as it has something to do with pop limits.
Is that a problem?

6) Does you Conviction factor determine Religious attack AND defense?

7) Culture
Sounds good. Only have a problem with, indeed, Senate.
According to your explanation, Democracy would have less Senate restrictions. That doesn't sound right.
You know, since we already have 17 factors, is adding one more such a problem?
Then all problems would be solved.

12) Environment

You know why I disagree with giving Env food bonuses. And I'm beginning to doubt if Production should affect food production.
In reality it should affect only Irrigation/Farm production! Means a bit less bonus/powerful factor. (Didn't you think the factor was way overpowered?)
Agreed?

Hey just got an idea.

Environmentalism should affect the production of Jungles/Forests and whatever tree terrain types there will be in Civ3.
It is true that carefully organized and environmentally forest harvesting means more production.
Perfect example is Finland. They have a marvellous forest planting/chopping system.

15) Commerce : Agreed.

17) Diplomacy : Agreed

What do you think of the changes to Env and Pro?

Should there be an independent Senate factor?

Please answer my Conviction question.

posted August 13, 1999 20:12                

First off, I don't really like those suggested modifactors I put on the last post. I simply used them to show how we can shorten the list.

Secondly, i about your post about goverments, markets and structures. I am going to do something that I don't usally do. I am going to ignore it completly. I would just say that you seem to like have "cool names" more then playabiltiy or historical correctness. Just rethink about that post.

Convition has no attack bonus, and shouldnt get on anyway. Thats for the morale bonus.

Points about shortening the list:

1. Consider uniting police with corruption into order.

2. My suggested Loyality should stay, including religous defence, brinibg resistence, espionage defence and redue emigartion.

3. I suggest to unite spy morale with unit morale into exprience. BTW, a well trained army always has good intel.

4. uniting support with military infrastructre would allow us to both be historicaly accurate ( to diodorus ), and still include the military industry bonus. BTW, a good Militarial would give bonus to military infatrstructre AND support ( where did you get the idea is was +Sup, -Mil? )

5. Commece and diplomacy should be united into relations. So, colonization could get a eco bonus, but because of here large relation minus, it would get low income from trade.

posted August 13, 1999 20:17                

Loyalty : Sounds good, but I wouldn't let it affect the cost of bribing.

Order : Higher police is not equal to higher taxes.
Less corruption is in game terms certainly not equal to high police.
Then Free markets should have massive corruption. No no.

Militarial : I don't know.
+ Militarial = + Sup, - Mil.
I am against factors with positives having penalties and negatives having bonuses.

Experience : Spy morale should be different.
A good army does not mean good espionage/reconnaissance.

Relations : In general you are right that better trade goes with better diplomacy.
But how then simulate Colonization with it's good trade routes?

9) Why does that mean a less annoying senate?

10) inaccuracy

In general, those combinations would let to massive inaccuracies.

posted August 13, 1999 20:38                

Me neither.

"Secondly, i about your post about goverments, markets and structures. I am going to do something that I don't usally do. I am going to ignore it completly. I would just say that you seem to like have "cool names" more then playabiltiy or historical correctness. Just rethink about that post."

If you want cool names AND historical correctness (that 'model' is very historical corretc).
If you want playability, I direct you again to my old Pre-Diodorian model.

"1. Consider uniting police with corruption into order."

In theory perhaps a strong police could lead to less corruption, but in reality an oppressive police regime never does.

"3. I suggest to unite spy morale with unit morale into exprience. BTW, a well trained army always has good intel."

Agreed.

"2. My suggested Loyality should stay, including religous defence, brinibg resistence, espionage defence and redue emigartion."

Agreed.

"4. uniting support with military infrastructre would allow us to both be historicaly accurate ( to diodorus ), and still include the military industry bonus. BTW, a good Militarial would give bonus to military infatrstructre AND support ( where did you get the idea is was +Sup, -Mil? )"

"4. Militarial ( Mil ).
Unite military industry and support. High mil reudce the cost of maintance and increase the cosntruction rate of new units."

reduced cost of maintainance = + Sup
increased construction cost = - Mil
Oh, or do you mean speed with rate?

"5. Commece and diplomacy should be united into relations. So, colonization could get a eco bonus, but because of here large relation minus, it would get low income from trade."

Then you would again get the problem that Colonization/Wealth gets +2 Eco. Means problems with Jon Miller. And you must admit he's right about it.

"6. Change Culture to Harmony, which is increased with good religons and regional structures."

posted August 13, 1999 21:12                

A while ago there was psoted the idea that in order to change governments, one would have to change the policies of the current government. Instead of going from a Monarcy to a Democracy, one would have to call a parliment, and othe things. A revolution could come ,but this would be not under your controll, and would cause havoc in your nation. I would like to build on these ideas.

Governments change over time, this has always been the case. The Roman Empire of Augustus was much differant than the Roman Empire of Justinian II. I believe that this change in government should be reflected in the game.

For instance, let us say that you arethe leader of the Celtic Monarcy, a fairly large multi-ethnic Empire. Like all multi-ethnic Empires(or empires of size), it has happiness problems. In order to quell this unrest High King Vercingtorix calls into existence a Parliment, and sets it's influence at low(if not a slide bar, there would be atleast 6 choices ranging from low influence to-very high Influence(aka the modern Britihs state).

this makes people happy, for a while, and the Celtic Kingdom is able to go on with it's buisness. Now, later on, the people grow unhappy once again and ,in order to fix this, the King raises the influences of the parliment. Making the people happy.

With the growing influence of the Parliment, the king would lose certian powers, making it slightly more difficult to follow his own agenda. However certian micro-managment functions would also be taken over by the parliment.

years later, due to unhappiness, the King has given away much of his power. Now, lets say that this is bothering him, as it does not allow him to build the military he wishes, or make war as he wishes. He tries to decrease the power of the Parliment. This, of course, causes wide spread unrest inside his nation, but he is able to do as he pleases. Unhappiness could be taken care of the old fashion way.

The parliment, at vering levles of power, would take over some production in cities, try to stop your actions if your military is big, complain about taxes and make a general pest out of themselfs. However, the fact that they can take care of some micro-managment and do keep people happy might make a player put up with them. If a palyer does not, he cna try to supress, and see how that turns out.

The Parliment would be an option in Monarcy. Once one passes out of Monarcy into Democracy, Communism(or other governments), the Parliment would be a Senate. And it would show how powerful of a senate you wished in responce to your President. Under a Fachism, no senate would be availble, but would have it's own set of prolbems

Now, i also mentioned the idea of slowly changing government through policies. Policies would also affect happiness, income and other social choices in the game. By changing them it would allow you to change a governmnet. (for instance, after changing the policies to turn from a Monarchy into a Democracy it would give you a message that states "policies changed, would you wish to formally change your government type")

Strangly, if your people are not ready for such change, the new government system would fall apart. If you changed from a monarcy to a Democracy a few turns after gaining the technology, for instance, it might not last long due to people not being ready for the change.

Anyway, thats all I ahve for now. What do you all think?

posted August 14, 1999 12:17                

The martial law button basically changes the city (only) from a more free political SE (republic, democracy) to a more totalitarian one (police state, etc.). If a totalitarian govt. declares martial law then it gets a large bonus to it's POLICE rating. This is my version Nerve Stapling. It's subject to the same Happiness penalties as regular SE shifts.

posted August 14, 1999 04:10                

one problem with your generalties is that you say things about a government but it is only true with the values that that government has

why is a senate always peaceful (this has not been true always in modern times)?

other things that are attributed to government or economics are really from values that might just happen to occur at the same time

that is one reason why my se idea is best

posted August 14, 1999 09:14                

Like I said before Maniac, read your post and my explnation on my SE options carefully. Till then, I am going to just ignore what you did in goverments.

List of modifactors

1. Police ( Pol )

2. Militarial ( Mil ): Once an for all. +5 mil will give you +25% shield output ( like production, only 5% ) when building military units, and reduce cost of all maintance by 5 gold each ( I reduce the production bonus to +5% since it needs to be united with support ).

3. Production ( Pro ): gives +10% per unit to civilan production.

4. Corruption ( Corr )

5. Growth ( Grow )

6. Expreince ( Exp ): for morale and spy sucess

7. Loyality ( Loy ): for increasing bring cost, conversion defence, reuce emigartion and espionage defence.

8. Culture ( Cult ): For senate intervension and rate of assmilting captured cities.

9. Research ( Res )

10. Economy ( Eco )

11. Enviroment ( Env ): for treating with pollution and gives +10% per unit to food-based tiles.

12. Happiness ( Hap )

13. Taxes ( Tax )

14. Relations ( Rel ): for diplomacy and bonus from trade routes. Colonization, maniac, had internal trade only: it didn't trade with other colonial companies. Therefor, colonization could get a small economy bonus, balanced by a rel minus which means the trade would suck.

Model 3 - using the new modifactors

Very few changes to the SE options themselfs: I almost perfected the system.
For numbers, I await maniac.
If he won't compile, I just give my own, "un-balanced" numbers

Goverment

* I added parlimental to monarchial series: but the king in this system would have more power then in today modern goveremnts ( some what more in the lines of the time of Magna carta in England, where the power transfer was only taking place ).
* Against my better judment ( it doesn't seem important enough for me ) I added tribal assembly.

Anarchy
Despotism->Military autocraty->Police state
Monarchy->Empireship->Parlimental
Dictatorship->Totalirist
Lordship->Theocracy
Tribal assembly->Republic->Democracy->True democracy

Markets

* I changed local markets to feudalism again since maniac seem to be too confused by the name ( or else I can't explain Fares ).
* I added capitlsm, since indeed the roman empire had a mostly free market.

Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Feudalism->Protectionism->Colonial
Social->Communism->Utopia
Capitalism->Banking->Free market->Transnational

Structure

Structres don't evolve over time Maniac. Don't try to push extra name inside. This list is stasfactory.
A slider bar best fit here, btw.

City state <-> Confedarte <-> Empire <-> Federal

Values

Passive ( better 0/0 name )
Power
Wealth
knowladge
Wealthfare

Army

* By civic duty I am refering that Military service is required, but sport a feeling of acceptings and honor to serve the country.

Basic
Mercenary->Military caste->Trained
Militia->Volunteer->Civic duty
Leeve in mass->Draft->Conscription

Research

Naturistic, Philoshopical, Explorer, Prarical

Religon

* Who said that Monotheism should get a different bonus from Polytheism? Here are my suggestions:

posted August 14, 1999 15:55                

The end result is a very fundemntal change to market.
The only positive thing about the endless amount of versions i spawn off faster then i can type them in, that they DO become more historicaly accurate. I think that diodorus will agree that markets now are even more historicaly accurate then ever.

Model ver. 4 - partial ( market )

Ok, first I outline what I had before:

Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Feudalism->Protectionist->Colonial
Social->Communism->Utopia
Capitalist->Banking->Free market->Transnational

And here is the new suggestions:

Basic

Three steps of the basical evoultion of economics over time.

Barter -> Currency -> Stock exchange

Controled

From a self-supporting market, to a global economy, a controled market was always thightly controled by the goverment.

Autarcial -> Fairs -> Feudalism -> Colonial

+ Prod, - Rel

Autarcial ( self supporting market ): The first market option right after bartering. This market system is comprimised by a series of small, autonomical markets that each is self sustaining. They are not linked in any way. Every city ( market ) stand alone by itself.

Fairs, that usally were financed and orginzed by the local/federal goverment, were mainly used by the 11th-13th centaury, and the post-major-cultures to show unique items from one city to another. A single annual fair sometime gave money to sustain familes for many months.

Feudalism were a form of better originzed autorcial and fairs system. Each single market was firmly placed and controled by the local bishop/lord/mayor that reported to the national govermenet and was in good connection with the other local markets.

As the nation grew, and trade with other nations was well established, the goverment stopped to control single markets: far too messy and in-effiecent. By using govermenet controled and financed companies, the goverment could control the nation at a much larger, more effiecent manner.

Directed

Directed markets were used by Europe, from the early 15th to the 20th centaury when direct control of the markets was either impossile, in-effeicent or not profitable. The independancy of those controled markets made it hard to trade with other nations: and some nations wants to trade.
Therefor, the used policies, either then direct control, to effect the markets.

Protectionism -> Meracntalism -> Nationalzation

+ Corr, -Eco

I think that by now we all know what protectionism and mecrantlism are.

Nationalazation

Main companies and factories and nationalized: thier CEO are elected and chosen by the govermenet and the policy and mostly shaped by the in-direct orders of the state. However, it grealy differ from Socialism by that the aim of this market option is pure effiency, other then gain to the people.

Social

Market type that are explicity aimed to treat the public.

Social -> Labor union -> Communism -> Utopia

+ Hap, - Tax

Communism and Utopia are clear enough by now.

Social market is when most vital industries, such as cloths, farms and water providing are nationalized to the direct control of the goverment. Major subdies, food quotning and job for every person who wants to work are what greatly differ this market system from Free market.

Labor union is a 19th centaury development, that beyond the govermenet control of vital industies, most workers have formed up into unions that can better treat, provied and understand the needs of the worker class.

Free

This has suffered the smallest change.

Guilds -> Banking -> Free market -> Transnational

+ Eco, - Mil

The only change is Guilds. The most early free markets were guilds: the first one date back to the days of the roman empire ( Capitlisation is a rahter new term ). Guilds have an almost unlimited autonomy in the market. Banking replaced the power of economical autonomy, and increased it by offering everyone citizen part of the action ( where guilds only helped each member ).

Summary

posted August 14, 1999 16:30                

"why is a senate always peaceful (this has not been true always in modern times)?"

You're right. That's why I would like the AI civs to have a reputation too. Then the senate could decide to continue military action against a betraying civ.

Harel :

"Like I said before Maniac, read your post and my explnation on my SE options carefully. Till then, I am going to just ignore what you did in goverments."

I read your explanation. What makes you think I didn't?

"Like I said before Maniac, read your post and my explnation on my SE options carefully. Till then, I am going to just ignore what you did in goverments."

If I don't agree completely with your SE factors and choices, I find it useless to give them numbers.

First we have to agree on 1) the factors and then 2) the choices.

Government

Parliamental is not the logical evolution of Empireship. Totalitarianism is.

Lordship is bad.
I suggest Monasteries. Similar buildings and communities (some with other names) appear in some religions.
In the case of spreading Christianity in Europe in the early Middle Ages, they had great power and were the actual authority.

Still don't agree with your police state track.

My Government

1) Despotism
->1.1)Military Junta
->1.2)Dynasty
-->1.2.1)Empireship/Abolute Monarchy
--->1.2.1.1)Totalitarianism
-->1.2.2)Parliamentary Monarchy

2) Tribal Assembly
->Republic
-->Democracy
--->True Democracy

3) Monasteries
->Theocracy

Economy

Harel, because you don't know Hanzes, doesn't mean they were historically important.
I stick with Hanzes.

Harel, there should be a distinction between state organized and private economies in 1500-1800.

The Indian companies determined the economies, and they weren't state planned.
You could call them the colonial time evolution of Hanzes, which were also trade groups.

So how would you call an economy with Indian Companies?

BTW, Mercantilism/Colonial was state planned, so then you could call Communism the next step in state planned economies.

Oh yea, I think the Greek City State economy before they began trading was Autarkie = Self Supply. Manorialism is also self supply. Perhaps I should rename it.

Barter
->Currency

Capitalist
->Free Market
-->Transnational

Manorialism/Autarkie
->Fairs/Hanze
-->Indian Companies?

Mercantilism/Colonial
->Communism
-->Utopia

So everything except Currency has 2 evolutions. Though I don't like the name cause it isn't a simple economy, an evolution of Currency could be Stock Exchange.

Structure

Sigh. Slider bars. I totally don't see how slider bars can be combined with fix SE factors.

Imperial
->Federal

City State
->Feudal
->Confederate
-->Commonwealth

Value

Survival
->Power
Imperialism
Socialism
Wealth
Knowledge

Research

Wise Men, Natural, Philosophical, Practical, Explorer

Religion

Animism, Religious Freedom, Establishment, Fundamentalism, Prosecution

Army

Draft is certainly not the same as conscription.

Basic
Mercenary ]_\
Military caste ] / Professional
Militia -> Conscription
Levee in mass -> Draft

[b]Reorganized Factors :[b]

Police, Urbanization, Research, Taxes, Economy : same old.

6) Nationalism :
Religious Defense/Conviction
Emigration Defense
Bribing Defense/Cost of enemy spy actions
Less punishment for atrocities

7) Production :
Non-military Unit/Building/Wonder Production
+ and - % of Irrigation/Farm Production (not all the food!)

8) Environmentalism :
Pollution
Natural Disasters
+ and - % of Forest/Jungle/any tree type terrain Production

9) Relations :
Diplomacy
Commerce

10) Bureaucracy :
same as Corruption

Now the problems.

11) Senate :
Senate Restrictions
A completely different 'factor'.
Perhaps, because it causes so much problems, I could make it a 'Special' Factor.

Every Government type gets a Senate + or -, dependent on how representative your gov is.

The Survival Value would get a large +(less Senate interference), simulating that in times of war the people are more warlike.

Name problems

12) Military :
Support
City Construction Bonus(100 free resources when founding cities)
Unit Production

13) Morale :
Unit Morale
Spy Morale
Spy Success Rate
+ modifiers halved

Military and Morale are bad names for what they represent.
Help from a military specialist needed. Harel?

These factors can be combined. Do it?

14) Happiness :
Assimilation Rate
Your Spy Operation Costs
Happiness Rate

15) Evangelism :
Ease of Cleric Conversion
Ease of Automatic City Conversion
Religious Attack(=Evangelism)

posted August 14, 1999 17:14                

I agree of course with the Autarcial->Fair change, cause I made it myself.

But where did you get the idea Feudalism is a market? Manorialism is.

And where do you get the idea that Autarcial/Fairs/Manorial is state controlled.
Just the opposite.
That Colonial evolution is totally wrong.

Labor Union and Communism are historically spoken close to each other.
Labor Unions evolved to the communist idea very quickly.

Do you know what guilds are?
They did NOT exist in the Roman era.
They arose in the Middle Ages. They existed only in the city. Exception : trading guilds, like the Hanze. They were some kind of labor union. They are social.
And they stagnated cause individual change by one labor union member forbidden. So in later periods it had less economy, you could say. No +2 Eco.
Therefore the eg textile industry moved from the city to the countryside, where it was also cheaper.
I'm sure Diodorus agrees with this.

So out Guilds there should arise two types of economy.
The open international Indian Companies out of trading guilds.
The closed labor unions out of the industrial guilds located in cities.
The first option should have a small Eco bonus.
The second option an economy penalty.

Around the same time arose state controlled, protectionist economies. I think I shouldn't assume it as an evolution of Guilds.

Perhaps the evolution of Currency should be Autarcial.

Or perhaps I should combine Indian Companies to Mercantilism.
?

Better Market :

Barter
->Currency

Autarcial
->Guilds
-->Indian Companies(please provide me with a better name)
--->Mercantilism
---->Colonial
->Guilds
-->Labor Union
--->Communism
---->Utopia

posted August 14, 1999 17:39                

However, you are wrong about the guilds. They DID have guilds in the roman era. I distincly remember reading I claudies ( I am very fond of those two books ), and i remember claudies debate with the "shitwrighter guilds" to bring wheat cheaper to the famined rome.

About the hansa ( not hanze ), it was a trade alliance of several northen german cities ( mainly lobek and Hamborg ) in the 12th-14th cenautry. It could, and should, be described as a trade pact which was allready suggested at diplomacy. I know, I suggested it.

Therefor, look at what I suggest:

simple: 0/0
Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Agreed?

stand-alone: +production / -trade
Autarcy->Fairs->Manorilism->?
Manorilism need to evolve inth something otherways it's a sitting duck.

directed: +effiency / -economy
Protectionsim->Mercantlism->Colonial->Nationalization
Agreed? Colonial was in a different time frame of merctanlism

Social: +Happiness / -taxes
Socialism->Labor union->Communism->Utopia
Agreed?

free: +Economy / -military
Guilds->Banking->Free market->Transnational

Guilds were a form of free market. They have an autonomy in the market, so they economy turned free. But the guilds only took care of them selfs, when banking was created the power of free economy was free to everyone.

Structres

Don't use evolving options here! Structre is a universal things, just like values! No -> at all!
And empire is distinct from federal, and confedrate is distinct from feudal! You can't unite them! And for pete sacks, let go of that commonwealth! You just seem to push it in everytime!

Slider bar:
Feudal <-> Confedarte <-> Empire <-> Federal

+Corr,-Tax<-------------------->+Tax,-Corr

Goverments

posted August 14, 1999 19:29                

First of all, with all your spelling errors I don't really know sure, but you seem to confuse Autarki with Autocracy.
If you do, stop discussing.

And yes, in small nations as the Greek City States, Autarki is as state controlled as it can get.

But in large nations as all European medieval ones, each manor and village had it's own autarki and that was as decentralized as it can get.
So I think I'll have to split them.

The first thing comparable to guilds appeared in the 5th century.
The name appeared in the 8th century.
The first real guilds appeared around 1000.

Although I Claudius is good, if the name guilds appears in it, it's an anachronism.

In fact I know quite a lot about Roman wheat transport.
When Egypt became a Roman province, there was an STATE organized wheat line Rome - Alexandria that brought 150000 ton wheat every year to Rome.
The Praefectus Annonae had to take care it happened smoothly.
There were STATE owned ships built by the STATE of 50 meters length and 13 meters broad and deep.
Quite huge, he. Such large cargo ships even never made the trip over the Atlantic until 1820.

So sorry for your precious book, but wheat transport is organized by a Praefectus Annonae, so a conversation between the emperor and a simple trader is unlikely and secondly the state organized wheat transport, so it's unlikely they would hire a trader with tiny ships.

So YOU must recheck your sources.

I also read in a book about a Carthaginian bank(actually it was a simple money lender - that was why I said Banking existed in the ancient age) while that is very unlikely.
You insulted me for just assuming there could be something like a bank.

I see you have no clue what Indian Companies were. These independent not state controlled (owner by share holders) companies got a trade monopoly for a certain time and place from the country. For the rest they may do what they liked.
Not government controlled.

Oh, has manorialism no meaning? Well, then how would you describe the European economy between 500 and 1000?

I am very surprised you hold Empire and Federal as two seperate things.
They are the same, only is Federal even more centralized. Actually Federal is just a modern name for Imperial structure.
That slightly higher centralization is just possible by technology.
Without it most countries can still be called imperial.

Hansa which language is that?
Ok, it's a trade alliance. But that changes nothing to my economy category.
BTW, it wasn't only northern German city. It extended to the Netherlands and some other parts.
The Hanze of 17 (with the biggest Northern German cities) was only the most important.

posted August 14, 1999 19:46                

OK, Dictatorship is different from Monarchy.
But Diodorus is right that it can end in a Dynasty.
And really, the only difference between them is that a king is legitimate while a dictator not. For that small change you don't make a separate category, right?

Manorialism an evolution of fairs???
Manorialism + production. You really need to read something about the period 500 - 1000 and learn what economical conditions they were then.

Why that protectionist option? The first simply is Mercantilism.

Guilds are certainly not free market. All members were bound to heaps of rules.

posted August 14, 1999 20:35                

in the times of the roman republic senators could not be involved in trade or like things

this was so they could not abuse their power

they had merchants called knights that would act for them

this ended up changing

posted August 15, 1999 15:10                

I'm no longer crazy, just going to go on with my setup (one of the only four or three very different ones out there)

I will put it here because I don't think any body is going back to the thread I edited

ECONOMICS

the economics settings mostly just affect the national values and control like governments but they only affect the control of cities and they have more of there own modifiers than do the governments

it can be looked at that governments modify the national values to get a se modifier and national values modify economies to get a se modifier

for example, if the people are not very individuslistic, shown by how much they value individualism they will work well with communism

the system will be set up like this

in communism increased individualism means increased corruption and decreased happiness

in freemarket increased individualism means increased trade

in freemarket increased wealth means increased trade

in communism increased wealth means increased corruption and decreased happiness

in manorialism increased individualism means decreased happiness (they don't want to be serfs any more)

all the values modify the economics in like manner (in differing degrees)

economics are

(I have not finished writing on any of them)

communist (real communism if you can get it right)
has increased happiness (this can go away with the right values)

free market (real free market)
has some harsh happiness penalties (especially for those groups do not rule), also has increased trade and production increases

socialist (maybe you should be able to choose a slider that goes between socialism and free market)
similar to communism but does not hav as big a penalties for individualism and wealth also increases happiness

manorialism (the feudal system)
those groups that do not rule are unhappy over this

mercantilist (ala Japan last 50 years and colonial britain)

barter (early system)

merchant (I'm not sure about the right word but it is meant to represent early non manorial non barter systems where merchants and small scale craftsmen as did farmers but information did not flow fast enough to make it like modern freemarket and governments did have there hand in it)

this is really really reall incomplete
________________

my threads for my se is/will be

POPULACE
STRENGTH - HAPPINESS - VALUES (incomplete)

STRUCTURE (unfinished)
GOVERNMENT (unfinished)

ECONOMICS (unfinished)

CONTROL (the idea is my AI idea as stated earlier in this thread, I will clean it up and repost it)

REVOLUTION (some of this idea is found in POPULACE post, will add to it)

I am sure there were others I have forgotten but since the need for them will still be there I will at least end up making something similar

posted August 15, 1999 17:22                

Government

Absolute

1)Dictatorship : +2 Pol, -2 Hap

Dictatorship has two evolutions.

1.1) Dynasty/Monarchy : +2 Nat, +1 Pol, -2 Tax

Increased nationalistic feeling by a king to look up at, still a bit larger police and a lot of taxes go to the court (Diodorus' explanation).
eg : European monarchies

1.2) Despotism : +2 Pol, +1 Pro(duction), +1 Sen(ate), -1 Hap, -1 Corr

Harel doesn't want Monarchy to be the only option after Dictatorship. I think this suits well.
eg : Persian shah's

I don't know if I should include this one, but Harel seems to want something police state alike.
An evolution of Despotism

1.2.1) Military Junta : +1 Pol, +1 Sen

An evolution of Dynasty

1.1.1) Parliamentary Monarchy : +2 Corr, +2 Tax, -2 Mil, -1 Sen

Good effects?
A parliament allows less corruption in a large empire.
In the States-General extra money can be asked.
However since that States-General mostly isn't that eager for war -2 Mil and hates to support it.
And for the same reason -1 Sen.

I think the following option can be an evolution of both Dynasty and Despotism. If I had to choose between them it's Despotism.

Totalitarianism : +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Corr

So, that's the Dictatorship branch.

Dictatorship -> Despotism -> Military Junta
. -> Totalitarianism
. -> Dynasty -> Parliamentary Monarchy

Representative

First base choice is

Tribal Assembly : +2 Hap, -2 Corr

+Hap because participating in politics gives them a happy feeling.
-Corr because this kind of government gets very ineffective when you have several cities.

The evolution of Tribal Assembly is Republic.

Republic : +2 Corr, +1/2 Pro, -2 Sen, -2 Mil

Since the Production/Centr factor is now less powerful, it could get a +2 bonus again.

Now there is a member of each city in the senate, means the Corr problem of Tribal Assembly is solved. This system even allows larger empires!
The senators tend to enrich themself and sometimes get the largest part of war loot. This was true in the case of Rome.
Again war difficult and more senate franchise.
Perhaps Republic and Parliamentary are too similar. Anyway they can't bother eachother cause they are available together only for a short time.

Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap,(+1 Rel,) -2 Sen, -2 Mil, (-1 Pol)

Simple : democracy. Perhaps there's too little difference with Republic. Solution?
Perhaps +1 Relations and -1 Police?

True Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Mil, -2 Mor, -1 Pol

Technology allows again that all people join the politics. Technology also allows better larger states. Means +2 Corr and +2 Hap.
Technology allows more trade and e-commerce.
Some -Mil reason. -2 Mor cause more decadent people and worse state security, Internet codes can be found.
-1 Pol?

So :

Tribal Assembly -> Republic -> Democracy -> True Democracy

Religious

First choice is

High Priestship : +2 Eva(ngelism), -2 Res

Impressive religions. High Priests have a lot of power. -2 Res cause suppression of free thinking.

Then the next evolution :

Theocracy : +2 Eva, +2 Tax, -2 Res

+2 Tax by donations and indulgences.

Next step :

Fundamentalism :

+2 Eva, +2 Nat, +1 Mor, -2 Res, -2 Rel

An idea of me in the Religion thread won't allow Fundamentalism to exist further as a Religion choice. + another benefit is that I have a modern evolution of Theocracy. Another problem solved.

So :

High Priestship -> Theocracy -> Fundamentalism

Means 3 great branches, but the Absolute one splits in two. Means you have always 4 choices.

What do you think of it?

posted August 16, 1999 14:35                

Whith this I mean other than the suggested markets of Utopia and Transnational and the Virtual Democracy government. Theese are indeed good ideas, but I mean something more like SMACs Cybernetic, Thought control, and Eudamonia. Something that is not excatly a government form or market type and which can only be done in a future society.

What if I discover advanced genetic engineering and want to make my civ into a totally genetic controlled society where everybody was engineered to be happy with his job (ie Brave New World)or where everybody was engineered to be a superhuman(ie the movie "Gattaca). Or if I wanted to turn the tasks of governing to AI computers? (ie SMACs cybernetic).

What if want to introduce the use of robots to do all the dirty jobs of society (ie manufacturing, service jobs, etc.) to leave humans to do more creative jobs? What about if I want to outlaw all of the major polluting industries and live in a totally green country, with a big bonus to happiness and ecology, but a major minus to production? (even tough I never played CtP this could sound too much like eco-fascists or whatever)

All of theese are just examples but I think that neither of them are very far-out (some more than other) and they could be reality within the timescale used in Civ II, and Civ III might run even longer in which case they certainly should be included.

posted August 16, 1999 15:44                

Production -- I would eliminate the food bonus for production and make the productivity bonus apply both units and buildings. I would couple production with an increased pollution rate.

Urbanization -- I would also call this "growth," and pair it with the food function that I stripped out of "production" in the preceding paragraph. It would look something like this.
Growth:
+5 growth occurs with each seven rows of food, and an aqueduct is necessary at pop. 11.
+4 growth at eight rows of food, aqueduct necessary at pop. 10.
+3 growth at eight rows of food, aqueduct at 9
+2 growth at nine rows of food, aqueduct at 9
+1 growth at nine rows of food, aqueduct at 8
0 growth at ten rows, aqueduct at 8
-1 growth at ten rows, aqueduct at 7
-2 growth at 11 rows, aqueduct at 7
-3 growth at 11 rows, aqueduct at 6
-4 growth at 12 rows, aqueduct at 6
-5 growth at 12 rows, aqueduct at 5

Evangelism - eliminate as duplicative of the latest religions proposal, which handles all religious issues outside of SE. I think that once you see our proposal, you'll agree that making religion something independent of SE, which has affects across borders, would introduce a worthwhile and interesting new twist to the game.

Reconaissance should not affect emigration

Environment should be combined with Production

Taxes should be eliminated

Internal control should be eliminated as duplicative of the latest religions proposal.

Military industrial should be combined with production.

That would be an alternate way to pare the list down to ten items, which should be more manageable.

posted August 16, 1999 19:02                

You don't realize how inaccurate and generalizing that 10 factors are. It's impossible to push it into ten factors as in SMAC, cause my factors affect much more than the few things SMAC did.

"Production -- I would eliminate the food bonus for production and make the productivity bonus apply both units and buildings. I would couple production with an increased pollution rate."

Your first suggestion and your first mistake.
+'s always have to be good and -'s always bad. And since Free Market should get an Environment penalty, it should also get a Production bonus. Which is not true.

"Urbanization -- I would also call this "growth," and pair it with the food function that I stripped out of "production" in the preceding paragraph. It would look something like this."

So now you're saying that increased pop growth automatically means more food? That people in Africa will be glad to hear it.

"Evangelism - eliminate as duplicative of the latest religions proposal, which handles all religious issues outside of SE. I think that once you see our proposal, you'll agree that making religion something independent of SE, which has affects across borders, would introduce a worthwhile and interesting new twist to the game."

Read my posts in the Religion thread carefully, Will. I already have eliminated the connections with the real SE.
And Evangelism isn't a duplicate. I said explicitly that State Religion only should have an Evangelism bonus IN your empire, just as you said. Same with Persecution.
And if Evangelism is deleted, how would you represent the Evangelism bonus of High Priestship - Theocracy - Fundamentalism?
BTW, I don't know anymore in which post, but you said that Fundamentalism should have an Evangelism bonus in the entire world and State Religion only in your own empire.
That is just what Fundamentalism and State Religion do! I don't know why you are against Evangelism. cause we agree actually.

"Reconaissance should not affect emigration"

Good news for you, it doesn't exist anymore.
And Nationalism does affect it. Agreed?

"Environment should be combined with Production"

You already said that and I already answered.

"Taxes should be eliminated"

Why? Cause you don't agree with my manner of giving tithes(which I represented with -2 Tax) to State Religion? And now you want to delete it completely? Taxes allow more precision. Instead of eg giving Dynasty and Socialism a -1 Eco (which makes that choices very bad) to represent the loss of taxes, you can give it -2 Tax which is more accurate AND balanced.

"Internal control should be eliminated as duplicative of the latest religions proposal."

Again the same problem. I don't like your tithes system and you try to delete Conviction cause it's a problem for your tithes idea. Deleting it would be very bad.

"Military industrial should be combined with production."

That means 4 previous factors in a new one! Support, Military Industry, Centralization and Environmentalism. Talking about balance... Perhaps (of course) there are unbalancing things in my system, but less than in what you are presenting.

"That would be an alternate way to pare the list down to ten items, which should be more manageable."

posted August 16, 1999 19:05                

Same old with some changes...

Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Mor

The new Morale(other name please) factor makes spying on Knowledge valued civs easier cause it affects the spy success rate. + High tech civs’ people become weaker and decadent.

Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -1 Sen, -2 Hap

Rich class has something to say = -1 Sen. Poor people become unhappier = -2 Hap

Socialism : +2 Hap, +2 Urb, -2 Tax

Support for everyone in the society causes greater happiness = +2 Hap. Less death so bigger pop growth = +2 Urb, but support requires a lot money = -2 Tax.

Survival/Power : +2 Mil, +2 Mor, +2 Sen, -2 Pro

Survival and Power requires support and training for the army = +2 Mil, +2 Mor. In high need (=the will to survive) or just because the foreign politics is imperialist the senate will be more tolerable to allow war = +2 Sen. But civil production tends to fall behind, cause a lot of resources go to the army = -2 Pro.
I think Survival and Power have the same effects on society. But I don’t know what name to pick.
For small civs it is Survival and for large Power.

I think these choice are more balanced.
In a big war or in the beginning of the game Survival/Power is good and in peacetime there are 3 good options, each with one of the three (four) most important factors. Knowledge has Research, Wealth Economy and Socialism Happiness.

Research

Mostly the same --

Wise Men : no pos or neg
Natural : +2 Env, -1 Urb, +25% Economic Research
Humaniterian : +2 Hap, -1 Mor, +25% Social Research
Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, +25% Military Research
Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap, +25% Academic Research

Perhaps Natural shoulf get –1 Pro.
Earlier Humaniterian had +2 Cult(factor doesn’t exist anymore). That wasn’t a really good choice. Now it’s better.
Earlier some found Practical too weak. Now the Military factor is more important. Question : should I change the research bonus to +35% to keep up with the loss of research by –1 Res?

Religion

The Religion Category doesn’t exist anymore. Check out the Religion thread.

Economy, Structure, Army

posted August 17, 1999 04:07                

I'm leaving for a while

the basics of my se structure are in this thread

control idea can be found earlier in the thread when I was talking about AI

I have government, populace, and economic sections

none of my ideas are complete but Bell should post them anyway (cause it should be easy to see what I was trying to do and BR could use that idea)

hopefully we will be able to refine our ideas after this next summarization

I'll be gone on my vaction until the 21st or 22nd

this should give me time to repost my ideas together

people are still not getting that technology does not make people think a way (and have certain modifiers), nor does government but rather the values of the people make them act a certain way (and have certain modifiers)

I kepp on hereing things like, once a certain tech comes arround all your people statr acting a certain way which people did arrpund that time for our history

a social historian would see however that while values sometimes defined what social tech was learned, social tech (nor physical tech) did not define the values of the people

you make this occur with your ideas of age of faith and democracy and countless other areas making us players in civ just replay world history, not make our own civ with the tools of humanity

but maybe I want a different game then you do

I will probably buy the game you want but I am bent on making it as perfect as possible and realistic and working so as not to force me into playing historical civs (no I do not want to play futuristic civs either, I just want it to be realistic in that I can try my own social theories (just ones that where discovered in regular earth history but maybe never implemented) on my people and depending on my peoples vaues some will work and some will not

the US's republic system would not (and is not in several areas of the world) work under certain values

the populace is the key

I also had some strange ideas in radical, in technology, and in combat

posted August 17, 1999 10:03                

I agree with Harel that structure choices don't evolve.

City State : no pos or neg

Starting option. Some people would say it has positives and negatives. I think those are covered under Government - Tribal Assembly and Economy - Autarcy.

Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Pro

Feudal is a structure choice, not an Economy choice. Perhaps I should give it -1 Production and -1 Urbanization/Growth.

Imperial/Federal : +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap

Imperial and Federal have the same effects, just don't know which name to choose.
Imperial is the old name, Federal the modern one.

Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Corr, -1 Pro

I deleted Commonwealth cause that should be a diplomatic option.
Harel, Unity should give a considerable trade bonus.

Again 4 choices.