posted August 07, 1999 14:42            

On the moral/experiene system, I aggre that moral is a bogus term. Maybe overall moral can simulate adding or subtracting a level of experience. Those fanatical, but green troops may be as effective as trained, but normally motivated guys.

posted August 07, 1999 16:28            

actually ember you are not correct, in many times in history the population of countries have been severrely hurt by to many men away at war

examples of these times are WW1, WW2, US civil war, and many other times

this was true in ancient times as well

posted August 07, 1999 17:39            

THere is already a mechanism proposed to simulate pop loss from war. When cities are attacked improvments take hits whenever the defender does (% chance), pop points count as structures for this purpose.

posted August 07, 1999 17:51            

in WW1 so many US men were out to war that US productivity was hurt (this was true for many other nations as well) and partly to offset this women were allowed into the workplace (gave the womens movement a huge jump)

during the war and after there were so man men gone from Germany and France that both had problems with there industry

I'm not saying what the right way to handle this is, all I am saying is that this is important

posted August 08, 1999 19:58            

Sorry for the length of this post, but I've been gone on vacation for awhile.

posted August 08, 1999 23:51            

I have always favored being able to ambush/conceal/scout/flank an enemy. Despite the fact that, yes, CivX is a tactical game, I continue to feel that giving STRATEGIC level orders to units will enhance the game by adding another level of complexity to it.

GIVEN: The examples I will give will be based on the old Att/Def/Move system, with only two levels of experience: veteran, and not veteran. However, my unit order examples can be modified to fit nearly any combat system (such as LASS) as need be.

GENERAL ORDERS:

Concealment: Every unit will have a base % chance at successfully concealing itself, typically about 0% for tanks etc. and 5% for infantry. Some units (scouts, explorers) get bonuses to concealment. Terrain also adds/subtracts from concealment (alpine troops conceal better in mtns., etc.). The Concealment special ability also adds to the base concealment %.
Concealment Order--Shift + C. This adds to the concealment abilities of a unit. The order takes 1 MP to effect, and slows movement by 50% thereafter. (there are exceptions to this, such as alpine troops in mtns.)
Concealment, well, hides your troops, giving you the element of surprise. It is NOT an ambush, though. Troops attacking out of Concealment gain +25% to ATT. If an enemy unit attempts to move into a space containing one of your concealed units and fails to detect it in doing so, battle commences and your unit gains +25% to DEF. If the enemy unit detects your unit, battle does not commence.

Scouting: Every unit gains a base scouting percentage, and certain terrains allow for scouting better than others. Scouting special ability adds to a unit's scouting ability.
Scouting order--Shift+S. Order takes 1 MP to implement, and reduces movement by 50% thereafter. (concealment + scouting = 25% movement).
Scouting increases the chances of detecting Concealed units and also increases line of sight--if a unit has a high enough Scouting ability then it can see 2 or even 3 spaces ahead. If Unit Stacking is used, then Scouting will also provide additional information about the enemy stack--supply level, fighting strength, commanders, etc. Also, if mines are used, then Scouting allows for the detection+removal of mines.

DEFENSIVE ORDERS:

Fortify: Fortifying is the act of garrisoning a position for long-term occupation, and holding that position at all costs. This means building forts, earthworks, minefields, etc. All this takes time.
Fortify Order-- F. The Fortify order takes 1 turn to take effect--the defending unit gains no bonuses on its first turn fortifying. Defender gains Fortress x 2 + Terrain + 150% + (Veteran Standing) to DEF. Defender cannot Conceal, but gains +50% to Scouting. Defender WILL NOT RETREAT! But, defender cannot move for 1 turn after Fortify order is ended (although it is still considered Fortified during this turn). This means that you cannot sally forth from a fortification.

Hold: This is the act of putting up temporary breastworks, clearing forests in order to get a clear shot, and digging trenches, all with the intention of holding a position at all costs.
Hold Order-- H. The Hold order takes effect immediately, and consists of Fortress + Terrain x 1.5 + 100% + (Veteran Standing) to DEF, but get -50% to ATT. A unit must be a Veteran in order to Hold, and a Holding unit WILL NOT RETREAT! The Hold order can be broken immediately, which means that a unit can attack directly from Holding. Holding units cannot conceal but gain +25% to Scouting.

Delay(skirmish): This is the act of just slowing down the enemy with the full intention of giving up ground. Just get yourself some riflemen, put them behind trees, shoot, and run before the trees get bombed to sawdust.
Delay Order-- D. Delay order is effective immediately, and remains effective even after a retreat. Delaying units gain Terrain x 1.5 + (Veteran Standing) to DEF (note that they do not get a Fortress bonus) and lose -50% to ATT, and also gain +75% to their Retreating chances. When the unit occupies its new position, it reverts automatically to its Delay orders. A Delaying unit must have Veteran standing, and its Retreat chances decrease 5% for every 10% health the unit loses. If a Delaying unit fails to retreat, then for the remainder of the battle it loses -50% to DEF (the unit's plans went awry). Delaying units gain +50% to Concealment and +50% to Scouting.

Ambush: This is concealing your unit in a square and waiting for an enemy unit to stumble into your trap.
Ambush Order-- A. Ambush order requires 1 turn to implement. Battle commences immediately upon enemy entering your square--it gets no second thoughts, and neither do you.
If ambush is undetected: ambushing unit(s) gain Terrain x 2 + 200% + (Veteran Standing) to DEF. (note, again, no Fortress bonus). Unit cannot attack until order is broken.
If ambush is detected by enemy: ambushing unit(s) gain Terrain + (Veteran Standing) - 50%.
Ambushing units gain +75% to Concealment and nothing to Scouting.

ATTACK ORDERS:

Raid: An aside--I feel that there should be supply bars on units (I will discuss my ideas for this elsewhere), but suffice to say that supplies depend in movement Terrain Improvements (roads, railroads, etc.), and that a unit's supplies determine its fighting ability for later.
Raid Order-- Shift + R (denoted by small 'r' at lower left corner of unit). May only be performed by units with 2 or more movement points available, and units which are Veterans. Defending unit gets no terrain bonus and half fortress + fortify bonus (if there is a fortress and/or the unit is fortified), and the Raiding unit gets Terrain + (Veteran Status) + 50% to ATT, BUT: 10% of the damage done by the Raiding unit is done to the defending unit(s), 40% is done to the supplies, and 50% is done to the terrain. Supplies damage is turned into reduced supplies for the defending unit, and terrain damage can result in one or more Terrain Improvements being destroyed. (the order of TI destruction precedence is: Supply Relay, Rail/Maglev Station, Port, Airport, Maglev, Railroad, Road, Farm, Mine, etc.) Raiding units gain +25% to Concealment and +50% to Scouting, and gain an extra move which cannot be used as an attack. The turn after the raid (the unit now has an 'r' on its lower left corner, but it is not highlighted), the unit cannot Raid, and it receives -50% to ATT and DEF (the unit is tired). Raiding units also gain +75% to Retreat, but if Retreat fails, then all additional damage is done to the enemy unit and the Raiding unit gets -50% to ATT for the remainder of the turn.
If the Supply system is used, then Raiding will be a crucial way to soften up the enemy by cutting off his supply lines (ripping up railroads) and stealing his supplies.

and finally...
Blitz: Can only be done by Veterans and units with 3 or more move points. This order is true "lighting war." A Blitzing unit CANNOT RETREAT, cannot scout, and cannot conceal. Also, it gets -25% to DEF for the turn after it blitzes. (additionally, if the supply system is used, a blitzing unit will use more supplies than a regularly attacking unit). Blitzing units get +50% + (Veteran Status) to ATT, and upon killing/driving off an enemy will immediately occupy the vacated square WITHOUT USING ADDITIONAL MOVE POINTS. So if my tank blitzes your rifleman and my tank wins, my tank now occupies the square where your rifleman used to be and I didn't use any more move points. This is ideal for use against Delaying units. HOWEVER: Ambushing units get an additional +150% against Blitzing units.

Well, that does it. Conceal, Scout, Fortify, Hold, Delay(skirmish), Ambush, Raid, Blitz. Obviously, not all of these will be available at once: most will require tech advances, and Blitzing in particular can only be done with modern units.

posted August 09, 1999 06:19            

The max training is a good idea, and should be implemented. Should there still be a SE choice that increases base morale (experience)?

The separate construction of arms isn't a good idea, IMHO, and is not in the favor of civ-type games.

Jimmy, the destruction of units causing pop loss is great! I fully support it! I remember hearing long ago of a war with Paraguay on one side, and Bolivia, Argentina, & Brazil on the other. Naturally, Paraguay got crushed, afterwards there were 28,000 men left in the country as compared to 2 million women! This would require a max unit per city.

technophile,
I am strongly against any "specialist" citizens, so I vote against soldier specialists.

The orders...some are good & some I must question.
Concealment: I would think that a concealed unit should not be able to move, unless it is small enough to avoid detection. It's one thing for an explorer or band of partisans to hide while moving, it's another to hide 10 armored divisions rumbling down the highway.

Scouting: Did anyone ever play the boardgame 'Flattop'? It had strategic levels of scouting that I think civ3 could use.
Lvl 1: Something is there. You don't know who, what or how many.
Lvl 2: You get a reading between 1/2 to x2 the actual number of enemy units.
Lvl 3: A mostly accurate number of units, and you know what some of them are.
Lvl 4: All info known.
Of course, detection should not be automatic. Scouting adds +% to detection and some techs would add to your chances. Some techs may subtract from detction.

Fortify & Hold: If I understand your numbers, a defender gets fort x2, so +400%+terrainx1.5, let's say hills, for +150%+another +150% for a grand total of +700% to defense (this assumes they aren't multiplied together, and someone's research a while ago suggests they are, so it'd be +800%). Don't you think this is a bit much? Under these circumstances, why build forts at all? They're LESS defensive! A def 2 unit (non-vet) would have a modified def of 16 or 18. No way! Leave it as is!
As for hold, this should be gotten rid of. Why? Because it invites offensive counter-manuevers. Encircling or pincers often were the answer to hold actions, negating the effect of the hold. Fortifying is one thing, and that's okay, but the hold action isn't. And why would only vets be able to do it? The no retreat for fortifiers is good, though.
Delay: Again, why vet only. The greenies should be lead by vet officers who can give commands. Anyway, simply allow the player to slow combat with a hotkey, and then have another one to order a unit to retreat. Have units assigned a number, and by pressing the number it will attempt retreat. If more units than 9 are allowed in combat then simply use 2 numbers. Assume your commander knows he should start fighting a delaying action, and leave it up to him.
Ambush: I've posted my thoughts on this before. I'd say here that a detected ambusher gains no bonus. Must be concealed 1st to ambush, or at least be completely undetected.

Raids: These should be done to the supply network, not the unit. Simply 'pillage' or give a 'raid' command that would be the same as a banditry/pirating command (instead of pirating trade lines you're pirating supply lines).

Blitz: How about allowing armies that destroy all defenders in a square can occupy it at no cost to move?

posted August 09, 1999 14:52            

;~)

how about my generals/leader ideas? (seen in SE and radical ideas)

these would probably have no bonuses (I guess they could have small ones) and you would have to use them if your SE choices made you lose some of the control of the military (in this case)

this would accurately reflect the fact that some of the problems of certain in other ways more favorable SE choices is that loss of control

I think that how many units you have should be limited by your population and that you should lose population when your units die

how this is done I am not completely sure of, if specialists are used the soldier specialist is ok (I know specialists are not realistsic) as a means to limit your troops, perhaps you could only have a certain percentage of your pop or your people(what you see in the city screen)

you should just lose pop if the units die in a certain time frame (like 20 years) so that early on you don't lose pop but later it is much easier to (to many people die at once)

I still sort of like my method which is make one worker in you city screen to add to the manpower bin (which you then make troops from and hp relates to how many troops there are), the worker disappears but the number of pop he was is added to the manpower bin (like 10000, 20000, ect) this shows the true benifit of more populous nations, the pop in the manpower bin can then be brought out to become a worker in that city screen again (showing that that percentage of your population is going back to your cities, the pop in the manpower bin are not exact people, rather they are an ever shifting group of the people who can be used to go to combat), if the unit is loss the pop from the manpower bin that went into it is lost, if it is disbanded the pop that went to create it goes back to the manpower bin (and if the player wishes, back to producing)

posted August 09, 1999 15:12            

So lets say that that tank that needs 3 supplies is receiving those supplies at only 20% efficiency. That means that in order to keep the tank fully supplied I would have to either produce 15 supplies (which means I'd have to make more soldier specialists), create more terrain improvements (railroads and maglevs connecting the tank to my supplying city), or I could shift supplies manufacturing to a closer city (thus eliminating some distance and some inefficiency).

posted August 09, 1999 15:38            

Concealment: I agree with you about not being able to move if the unit's size is too large. This can be solved by, as you say, making only certain units capable of concealed movement, or it can also be solved by giving multiple concealed units a tremendous concealment penalty (1 unit, 50%; 2 units, 10%; 3 units, 2%; etc.).

Scouting: Again, I agree, this time without any reservations. Such a system would be perfect.

Fortify: Did I give Fortify that big of a bonus?!? Whoops! Oh well, the playtesting can determine the numbers. Just let the record show that Fortify gets a BIG bonus.

Hold: Reason for having only veteran troops be able to Hold is that their orders are to hold AT ALL COSTS. For green troops, telling them to hold at all costs is one thing, having it happen is something else entirely. I did not give this restriction to Fortified troops because I figured that they were so well dug in that as soon as the green troops decided to retreat they would find that they couldn't (their pillboxes would be surrounded, let's say).
Your idea about selectively retreating units would solve this problem: just don't issue the retreat order, and the veterans won't retreat (maybe the greens still will, though). That had been my intention all along: to insure that my units won't retreat by issuing a Hold order.

Delay: Same thing as for Hold, this order is unnecessary if there is selective retreating. Without selective retreating, however, I'd still like to have it.

Ambush: I was actually giving ambushers a penalty if they were detected.

posted August 09, 1999 17:43            

I'm not familiar w/your ideas on generals/leaders, so you may wish to post them here again. But they really should go into UNITS. My ideas for them simply add +1 experience to units grouped with it, reduce any negative effects of Random Combat Effects (described elsewhere), can buy military units as diplomats, or pay them to disband, and enemy units about to die may switch to your side. Of course Nationalism tech or certain SEs may not permit the last 2.

I like your 'manpower bin' idea, but it has one major flaw: those soldiers didn't spend all their time campaigning or training away from home. The vast majority of their lives were spent living as civilians. So their impact on their city's production is negligible. Now if it's a scenario, say the WWII Pacific theatre, I can see this being a valid idea. Maybe it should be allowed as a scenario tool, but I don't think it should be in the game proper.

Technophile,
Someone suggested a difference between corruption & efficiency somewhere else; I guess it was you. I can see how that would work. Based on what I know (not much) that 20% efficiency would be the minimum any supply network could reach and not be raided. Most figures (that I've seen) say that logistic crews equalled about x2 the actual military soldiers.
Aside from my aversion to specialists in general, the main reason I don't like them is Korn 469's -2 Econ with them. Doesn't taking them out of the field constitute enough of a penalty? As far as the nuts n' bolts of efficiency, the distance mods, the supply TI's, that's all good. I'd include tech as a factor in efficiency. But I'm lost as to why we need soldier specialists.

Fortify: Isn't +50% a big bonus?
Hold: Green troops that can't retreat and want to would probably break and be routed. This not only would remove any bonus for defense but would give a penalty. Again I must point out the game is strategic in scale; the bonus for defense & maybe the route effectively cancel each other for game purposes.

Ambush: I read it wrong. Sorry.

posted August 09, 1999 17:43            

Currently, you lose population in a city when you lose a battle there, but frequently the structures of the city are untouched. What I'm thinking of is having the a possibility that any improvements in a square where a battle takes place be destroyed.

In the open areas around a city, this could result in farms, mines, railroads being destroyed by combat. And more importantly, when fighting takes place in a city, the improvements of that city should be at risk. This could include Wonders.

Two other options this opens up.....
Both the Attacker and the Defender could have an option of going to "Unlimited War" during a battle. This option would raise combat values, but also increase the destruction caused by a battle.

Also, this could open up the idea of Strategic Bombing. Air and Missile attacks on a city could have an option of attacking improvements or units in the city. Or maybe they should have to eliminate the defenders before getting to the improvements.

I believe either would be an enhancement to the strategy of Civ because they would raise the cost of warfare. A military attacker may conquer cities, but the cities he conquers may be a blasted ruin. An a stalemate war could be costly for both sides by devastating a border region.

posted August 09, 1999 18:58            

Devastate Order: Shift + D (denoted by a small 'd' in the lower right corner of unit). The way I see this working, it would benefit the defender more than the attacker (the defender already occupies the farms/houses), so I would give +1% x (number of city improvements) +1% x (population of city) + 10% to DEF. This means that if a city has a population of 10 and 5 city improvements, the defenders would get +25% to DEF. However, this would result in more civilian casualties than usual, and would also damage the buildings more than usual. In non-city fighting, the defender would get +10% +2% x (number of terrain improvements in square) to DEF, but the terrain would be severely damaged and several improvements may be destroyed. The attacker does not occupy the city's houses, but can level them to the ground in an "unlimited war." This, however, is not as powerful as the defender's advantage, and so an invading army on Devastate would get +10% to ATT and nothing else, although it would cause much more damage to TI's, CI's, and population.

Back to Theben:
Soldier Specialists + Supplies Redux: It doesn't seem fair that Podunk Arkansas should have to supply its own garrison in Civ III, but Montezuma is trying to capture the city that is likely how it is going to turn out--you build a garrison, the garrison's home city is Podunk, and so Podunk has to dedicate its industry towards supplying its soldiers and can't build libraries etc. If there are Soldier Specialists, however, then New York can build the supplies (turn Workers into Soldier Specialists) and ship them to Podunk, at the cost of fuel and such (Efficiency). It would be more efficient if Podunk supplied its own soldiers, but then it couldn't build jack squat with all its resources dedicated to holding off Montezuma. THAT is why I like Soldier Specialists so much--it lets the frontier cities expand faster, and allows for larger modern armies (assuming your supply lines haven't been cut). It also adds the element of "what if the enemy paradrops into the heart of my country and rips up my railroads. Sure, I can kill the paratroopers easily enough, but my supply lines are going to be shot to hell." You've got to watch your back or your front suffers.

posted August 09, 1999 20:38            

It would be like the "find city" command, and then supply is drawn from the chosen city, New York in this case, with all the distance supply factors you mentioned in the above.

posted August 09, 1999 23:10            

Blitzing: It looks like I'm making things too complicated, but at the same time you're making things too simplified for my tastes. Having a unit automatically move into a conquered square if the battle was a pushover and calling it "blitzing" doesn't satisfy me, because:
-blitzing should decrease the defender's chances of retreat,
-blitzing should give an attack bonus, because of the element of surprise, AND
-blitzing should require additional supplies, since not enough time is being taken to set up the supply lines (tremendous inefficiencies will take place on the first turn since the tanks (or whatever) have left their support staff eating dust).
These are my reasons for having a Blitz order which can be given to fast units (tanks etc.). Blitzing unit gets +25% to ATT, no scout, and no conceal, and defending unit gets -75% to retreat.
So the benefits of your system over mine, as I see them, are: it's simple (this is a big one, though) but the benefits of my system are: you can trap units which might otherwise retreat and repair, you get an attack bonus, you FORCE the extra move (it isn't a possibility, it's a "do or die" attack), and your unit suffers accordingly from loss of supplies.

Hold + Fortify: I suppose that the Hold command is implicit in defending, but I've never thought of it that way. I've always figured that my riflemen aren't doing anything but standing around picking their noses until I issue them an order. Perhaps a distinction can be made, however, if:
-Fortify cannot be performed until Construction, and it takes TWO turns to put a unit into a Fortify position (although only one to break it). Fortify units never retreat, get +50% to DEF (+75% after Engineering, +100% after Modern Warfare), and get +150% (instead of +100%) from Fortresses. Fortified units also receive +50% to Scouting.
-Hold can be performed whenever, and gives the unit +25% to DEF (+50% after Modern Warfare), but also gives -25% to ATT (units have to regroup, get out of their trenches, cross their minefields, whatever--they're less maneuverable, let's say). Hold units make full use out of Fortresses. Hold units also receive +25% to Scouting (I'm pulling the Scout numbers out of nowhere, just note that Fortified units get more Scouting ability).

So there's the way to settle it: my Riflemen aren't picking their noses anymore but are creating makeshift breastworks and digging trenches, and the units are earning their Fortify bonuses with the two turn penalty and the required tech advances. I hope I've convinced you that a Hold command is not frivolous.

posted August 10, 1999 12:11            

Fortify. Only available to infantry type units. Adds bonuses as stated.

Hold. Available to both infantry and mobile types. Bonuses as stated.

Raid. Available only to mobile units. Acts as a bombard, except both units use their (C) rating, instead of the apropraite (LAS) rating as in a bombard. Good for harrasing arty or TI's.

Bombard. as is.

I don't feel that ambush fits on the scale of a CIV battle. It is included tactically with the bonuses to hold and fortify, as are minefields....

Delay is good. available to all units. When a delaying unit retreats it attempts to destroy the road/RR/base/fort as it goes (Scorthed earth).

Scouting is impicit in units with the scouting ability, like horsmen, calvary, alpine troops, spies, submarines, etc.
Scouting gives a unit 2 vision range. The second square sees as normal, and the first one can determne stack composition. (% chance)

Conceal: Available onle to Disiplined or better troops. (vets). It makes the unit look like something else (Riflemen as tanks, or modern tanks as WWII style, Horsmen like knights. In a square with multiple units, can change the number of units by double or half. scouts have a chance of detecting this. You select wether to conceal or bluff, the AI does the rest. Usefull to hide your disposition of forces.

Attacking pop/structures is already included in CLAS-D.

Intercept. For ships, planes and mobile/bombard units. Launches a raid when the enemy comes in range. Could be combined with sentry.

Sentry. +% to scouting, better chance to retreat, but not as good as delay, and without scorched earth.

posted August 11, 1999 03:54            

Theben, the manpower pool is an ever shifting group of the civil service age

they are in the cities and then are moved into the pool (when an equal number are moved out, have served their term) where they then serve their term (and perhaps die in combat) whereupon they go back to the work force and are replaced by younger people

that is what I assyme, does that fix it for you?

please address

posted August 11, 1999 13:20            

1) An age group assumes military duties, whereupon it enters the pool, leaving civilian life temporarily behind
2) After a given amount of time, it leaves the pool, to be replaced by another, likely younger group. It now re-enters the civilian populace.

Is your point that over time there is a constant amount of people assuming military duty, and not performing civilian tasks?

If so, I get it now. If not, please explain further. Also if so, you'll need to go into A LOT more detail (more work for me *grumble*)

posted August 12, 1999 05:01            

Theben, yes 1 & 2 are right

what I was thinking is that it would be population as in if you send 1 pop pt from a two pt city to the bin you get 20000 people in civ 2

A settler will take 10000 people (somewere arround there)

other units will continue growing in size (with a minimum of 100) as you try to get more hp than your enemies with technological limitations (before certain techs you can handle only so many troops)

in modern times troops would be division size

(I favor my combat system best but lass is fine, I do not like range combat instead I assume units fight using all there abilities and range is either added into the attack/defense factors, in my system, or is added to the unit as a modifier as in smacs discarded projectile/energy rules or is given modifiers ala pikemen, if something similar to the discarded rules are used it would be close/ancient ranged/modern ranged)

hp's are modified as I stated before= technological level, terrain, (desease rate), organizational level, ect. (I don't remember them all, they were back aways but not in the previous list)

the higher the technology the more effiecent the use of people are same with organization level

the modifiers are precentage lost so that bigger armies lose a lot more manpower factor

hp's would then be gotten by comparing the armies final strength factors in each battle

the city support box sounds all right but it would make population lost for each city and wasted population in the bin that is not being used

the cities spend production to equip and train the men but the men do not have to come from that city

thank you for giving me a chance to clear that up

posted August 13, 1999 18:24            

First off, I detract everything I've said about Soldier Specialists--you've convinced me. The supply changes can be done much better just by allowing units to change "home cities" anytime. So long as there is some way to simulate population loss due to warfare, I'm more than content not having Soldier Specialists. So there's no need to put them in the summary on my account.

As for the Unit Orders, it looks like we're at an impasse. I want things too complicated for your tastes, and vise versa. Oh well. Until somebody comes with new suggestions/complaints, I'll leave it be. All I ask is that you find room in the summary for the orders. Particularly Devastate.

And finally, I suppose this is the correct place to post this:

ORDERS TO BE ISSUED UPON CONQUERING A CITY:
I don't like the fact that conquering a city means that you must gain control of it. I would prefer it if there were different options which your victorius army could be issued other than "Occupy." This wouldn't slow down the gameplay overmuch, I don't think, since a window pops up every time you conquer a city anyhow--might as well put a few orders in that window.

posted August 19, 1999 12:04            

This allows for easier accros empire movement without sending each induvidual unit through your rail net.

For aircraft this is the only way to relocate them, because they act as long range artillery.

posted August 19, 1999 02:03            

I'd like to see a combat rule whereby if you surrounded a unit, or effectively cut off its supply line (if such a thing is modeled), you could capture it. I know they did something like this in Civil War Generals 2, and it was fairly effective. In this case, I'd like to see the captured war material represented by the unit becoming available to you, minus any bonuses (veteran, etc.) it previously had.

posted August 19, 1999 23:05            

PUSH ORDER: shift + P. Increases movement of unit. Damages unit. Lowers DEF and ATT.

This order is like a forced march, for those times when you absolutely HAVE to get to where you're going. -75% to Scout, -75% to Conceal, Ambushers deal +50% damage cumulative to other Ambush bonuses if a Pushing army stumbles into an Ambush. -25% to DEF, -50% to ATT. -25% to CURRENT HEALTH (not total health--Pushing cannot kill a unit, but if your unit is doing that badly, then pushing won't do it much good--see below). This damage is effected only once per turn. PUSH order must be issued at beginning of turn. Each move that unit PUSHES will cost it 40 supplies. Note that using my supply system that this will completely drain most units of supplies. MOST IMPORTANTLY, PUSHING gives +60% to current MP's (current MP's are determined by base MP's, supplies at beginning of turn, and unit health at beginning of turn). This bonus is rounded to the nearest whole number.

This is the order to issue when you HAVE to get a unit moved. Maybe there's a nuke coming. Maybe you have to fill a gap. Maybe you just want to clear a mine field (the hard way).

Oh, and one more thing--you cannot DEVASTATE and PUSH at the same time. This is just kinda common sense--how fast can you march if you're constantly ripping up railroad tracks and twisting them around trees? That type of business takes time!

posted August 20, 1999 21:42            

I disagree. The PUSH order simulates one of two things--a forced march (non-mechanized units) or a haphazard drive (mechanized units). When moving through terrain there are many small hazards that a unit must avoid--just one example is that in a Grassland square there are many small rivers that are not on the scale of the map but nevertheless must be crossed by the unit (see Terrain for the argument that grassland should always be irrigable regardless of whether there's a river next to it). Normally these small obstacles are insignificant--rafts are built, mountain passes are located or the mountains are circumvented, invisible partisans are easily avoided, etc. HOWEVER, if a mechanized unit is haphazardly making its way through a tile, it throws caution to the wind in order to make better time. Or maybe the tanks are low on fuel, and instead of waiting for the fuel trucks the commanders brew up grain alcohol and run the tanks on that (messing up the engines and causing damage to the unit, but saving time in the short-run). So essentially I'm assuming that all Civ units have a greater movement range than they employ (with the exception of aircraft), but that they sacrifice some of this movement in order to move without damage.

posted August 21, 1999 16:31            

Colonization/Migration

“How to simulate the migration of the ‘barbarian’ people at the end of the Roman Empire?” I asked myself. Cause they were in Civ2 terms some kind of settlers with a big attack and defense.
There should be a unit that represents some migrating people. Good, simply 4-2-1, settlers, one could say. But that would be an expensive unit. But the fact is that migration was unorganized and didn’t require 40 shields. It was instantaneous. In fact, there was never an organized migration of 10000 people, or just 10000 people saying “let’s found another city”.
So I began thinking about something else…

In Civ3 the Terrain Improver/Former could be deleted, well, now I suggest the City Founder unit would also loose much of it’s use until late in the game when planned colonization exists.
I am against automatic city building by the AI as some people suggest. What I suggest is you can point a tile where people may found a city. It may be any square 1) on a continent where there is already a city of yours and 2) not next to another city. All the rest is automatic with a migration system. People will move to that spot gradually if conditions are good.

I think there isn’t a migration system yet, except one based on happiness. I would let it play a much larger part in the game.
The automatic migration system would try to find a balance between labor and resources in a city.
This is to represent unemployment. If there is more labor(people) than resources(work) there is unemployment. And no work means that people migrate to parts where there is more work to do.
If there are more resources(work) than labor(people) there is work available and people migrate to other already existing cities with more resources or they will move to a spot you chose as a new city.
So cities built in large grasslands tracks will not be big cities since there would be large emigration out of the agricultural area without work.
Small cities will always have more resources than labor since they always have N+1 worked squares, where N is the size of the city. But to both solve the ICS problem AND the possible problem that large cities would not be possible since ALL the people would go to new cities, I came up with this.
The city square normally produces the amount of food if the square is irrigated, the amount of minerals with a limit of at least one and one trade if a road would normally produce trade.
I would add the following. If a city reaches two population, it gets for free 20 labor and 20 trade (don’t forget I use the x10 system). If a city reaches size 3, it produces an extra 30 labor and 30 trade in the city square. And so on… The extra bonuses are because in Civ2 a city with size 1 had 10000 people, a city with size 2 30000 and 3 60000… So of course the second population ‘unit’ produces double as much as the first, the thirth triple… or otherwise told the second pop unit produces 20 labor, the thirth 30. And of course a large city means more trade for the same reason; there are more people.
This would solve the ICS problem, since large cities are MUCH bigger production and trade centers as many small ones. I hope I have persuaded guys who would want to reduce the city square production to 0 food, shields and trade. I think my solution solves the ICS problem better since 0-0-0 city square production makes small cities produce too less trade and resources in the beginning and therefore seriously reduces migration to the newly built city.
And because the extra labor is balanced with the extra trade, automatic migration out of a city because there is a large population (much labor in my system) and too less resources compared with the population is impossible. So migration would be totally dependent of the resources of the surrounding terrain, as in reality.
This will represent more accurately the flow of people and the growth of cities in history. In CivX that was represented totally wrong with excess food since most big cities now and in the old days were mostly the big trade cities and some/most of them are were in half desert like terrain.
That would mean a lot more trade, so the game economical system could need some rebalancing. But don’t forget that people have suggested much more uses for gold eg troop support, religion, and if you read on, I suggest gold I also needed for colonization/migration.
So, let me define resources. Although in the Economy/Trade thread it is usually referred to as the replacement of shields, for this case I also count trade as resources.
So the biggest cities will be as in reality the economical cities.
But if you would some trade cities on a Civ2 map, they would have a lack of food eg Palmyra, Petra, Bokhara… So there is need for a general ‘food box’ for the entire empire. I don’t know sure, but I thought it existed in CTP. After all the food is ‘collected’, it becomes distributed over the empire as needed. Perhaps the efficiency of food transport (your SE Corruption/Bureaucracy rate)would also have to do something with how well food is distributed.
For example in a Federal structure with a Bureaucracy bonus food transport would be better than in the Confederate structure. Or if the above isn’t accepted, I insist that food trade routes are automatic and unlimited, so you don’t have to build a 50 shield caravan.

But of course the state has to say something too in migration. However before people are willing to move, they have to be paid a lot. So if you would want to speed up the growth of new cities or if you would want to move people to a food producing area with no other resources (eg a large Grassland track) you would have to pay them. I suggest per population unit 400 (x10!) gold (the price of a settlers in shields).

Population also x10?

I have a suggestion. It isn’t necessary for my migration model to work, but it would make it more precise since migration per 10000 is kinda rude and sudden. If population is also multiplied by 10, the migration model could be more precise. Migration could be more slowly, which is better.
Then you would have to pay only 40 gold for one pop unit.
Popx10 would make it impossible to have a population box as in all civlike games.
I suggest a simple box with the following information.
Happy : 20
Content : 70 + -
Unhappy : 10
Taxmen : 0 + -
Scientists : 0 +-
Entertainers : 0 + -
Rest : 0
So you would have a simple box showing the amount of people that have which happiness level or job.
The +’s and –’s are to switch eg a normal content citizen to an entertainer. For example if you would want to switch a content citizen (you can only make content citizens a special citizen (= taxmen, scientists, entertainers) and only happy citizens special if there aren’t any content ones. Unhappy people you could never makes special) to an entertainer, you click the minus of content. Then there appears automatically 1 (or perhaps 10?) in the Rest. Then click the +.of entertainer.

Recuitment

Doing pop x10 would also make a recruitment system possible, since if you keep the normal pop system, the mobilization of even one pop unit would mean a lot of Riflemen units = unbalancing and unrealistic. If it’s used, then you should not build Musketeers or Riflemen, but Muskets, Spears, Bows or Rifles. They could be stored and don’t require support. Then, in times of war, people could be mobilized, = one population unit disappears from the cities. You could mobilize people as far as you have guns, spears or any weapon in stock. Of course, if the units are killed, they can’t return to the normal city population after the war. This would simulate the loss of population in wars. However conscripted units would have the worst possible morale/experience. If you have Draft or Civil Duty as your SE Army choice, the experience could be a bit higher.

Settlers/Unit Workshop

Settlers should still exist, but they shouldn’t have the same use. First of all, you shouldn’t able to build them for reasons I have already explained. You could only get them if you click the “Migrate” button. Then your city would disband and in that process all buildings in the city would of course also be disbanded. Per 10 population units in the popx10 system, you should get one settlers. You should also be able to give the settlers any weapons you have in stock, eg spears, guns… basically creating something like armed nomads, as Diodorus wants to represents with his Tribe/Nomad ideas he presented several times in the Civilizations thread I think. That Settlers units would follow the same rules as Diodorus presented in his Nomad posts.
So the German population migration can be represented. If horses can also be built on the same way as spears and guns, you could even simulate people like the Huns or Mongols.
What I am suggesting is that in a city every item can be built: shields, chain mail, swords, guns, horses, or in later areas tanks. Then in the unit workshop you could create your army with the available weapons. So in a city you only built equipment, but to form a real army, you have to mobilize a population unit.
That means in peace time you can maintain a small army and in war recruit more units in a short time.
As I said before, mobilized units would have a bad experience/morale level.
To give them better experience, they should stay 3 turns in a city with a Barracks and then they would get 2 experience upgrades. Later in the game there could be a similar building, called Military Academy.

Oversea Colonization

Colonization oversea should require a unit I think. Some Sea Unit looking like a boat of Colombus. It should have a large movement range. And it should be able to move on land. If it moves on land it founds a coastal city. That way you expand oversea. More realistic.

Upgrading units

Upgrading units would be simplier. Just move them in a city, go to the unit workshop and change the item, you would want to change. Upgrading reduces the experience level with one.

Population Growth

As you might have guessed, I totally disagree food production has anything to do with pop growth. Food only is needed to feed the people.
Came up with the following. Not worked out in details, since I am no social historian.
But everybody can guess that population growth is dependent of two factors : the # children a family has and how long people live.
The # of children would be dependent on how many food there are produced since in earlier times children were assumed as working forces(child labor). So the more children a farmer has, the easier for him, the more free working forces he has and the less people he has to employ and pay.
So pop growth still has to do something with food, but indirectly. It should also be affected by your SE Growth or Urbanization factor. The eg Socialism Value would increase the number of children.

With the techology advance of Industrialization also the # of shields/resources would affect your pop growth. Means that suddenly two factors affect pop growth. That could simulate the fast pop growth around the same time of the Industrial Revolution.

The second thing affecting pop growth is how long people live. That should be affected by some techs like Medicine. In general the life expectancy would increase over time if medicine betters. It should also be determined by your SE Environment factor. Living in a polluted country should decrease your life expectancy.

Wow, are you still reading this? As you have read, what I am suggesting solves some problems like ICS plus it also includes some ideas of others like recruitment, nomads, migration…
It could be a real improvement for Civ3.

posted August 24, 1999 18:06            

A few points.
Hitorically all major cities are on major rivers or the ocean. Or both.

The village system allows you to have early cities only on these squares and have all the food and resources brought in from the inland and fishing villages.

Happyness can be seen as how much people want to live in a city... In this case it is the biggest factor in immegration/emmigration. Up unitl recently unemployment has not been an issue. Everyone could have some work, even if that was as a labourer or in the fields.

A river/costal city square would give a bonsu to trade and a bonsu to growth, making these very attractive spots for cities.
No food or resources are gathered from theses squares so the resouce formula is N + M, where N is the labour/trade from N city pop, and M is the food/resources from M village pop.

One unit of labour does not neccisarily 'work one unit of resources' It depends on what you are building.
Ancient units are an even mix, modern units require more labour than ancient.
NAval units require more resources than land.
Improvments require lot's of resources.
Spy's, etc. require only labour.

I have proposed 'fractional pop points'.
These would allow a city to grow and recruit as you describe, but keep the simplicity of having less than 200 specialists to keep track of...

I believe that a straight recruitment system is needlesly complicated, but if you build units as normal and if the unit is killed have a certain amount of pop removed from it's home city. The nation as a whole should provide for the support, but the home city would take the pop hit. Max units suppoted = 2-5 x pop. Play balance decides this.

To upraged units I agree, move them in a city, say upgrade, x gold and y turns later They are the next class of unit better.

posted August 30, 1999 14:51            

1) 1st off I need to point out how the unit workshop idea should be:

• L/A/S/S running down the left side;

• The unit picture in middle;

• Hit Points, Firepower, Range, and Movement on the middle right side;

• All unit OPTIONS on the far right. A single unit can have many options, much more than 2 as in SMAC.
  

1a) How they work:

• L/A/S/S has been discussed before. Each represents the strength of the unit in that domain.

• Click on the unit picture and a picture list (like SMAC) will show all the possible chassis types to change the unit to. I prefer this because you'd be able to see what the other factors are of the unit while changing the chassis, with unit costs. In SMAC one has to go back & forth between the unit screen & chassis screen, which is a pain with slower machines.

• These are set when the OPTIONS & chassis, strengths of unit are chosen, but it is possible that minor changes could be made to the unit here. Chassis types are:

  Land Sea Air Space
  Infantry-------- Wooden hull-----------Plane------------Satellite
  Mounted------- Iron hull----------------Airship----------Spacecraft?
  Motorized------Steel hull?-------------Helicopter
  Mechanized------------------------------Missile

  Note- Dashes are for spacing purposes only.

  
  

• This is the heart & soul of unit design. See below.
  

1b) Unit OPTIONS list:

• Anti-Personnel, or AP
  
• Brigade
  
• Heavy
  
• Cavalry contingent
  
• Nomadic
  
• Settler
  
• Engineer
  
• Immune to Terrain- list types
  
• No support needed
  
• Artillery
  
• Camouflage
  
• Partisan
  
• Nuke
  
• Single shot
  
• Nuke DEF
  
• Scouting
  
• May engage domain L/A/S/S
  

Plus various other options found in Civ2 & SMAC (CtP?). Note that with LASS many options aren't needed ( attack air, x2 air, etc.) but some may still be necessary(x2 horse).

1c) Definitions:

• AP- This adds =100% to land STR vs. infantry & mounted units. Refers to machine guns, and is available around the same time. Land, Air chassis only.
  
• Brigade- Reduces the total hp's of a unit by 1/3rd, and may drop it's STR by -1 in all domains (never less than 0). Also substantially reduces the unit cost, and opens up several Options to the unit in workshop. After Guerilla Warfare like brigades may combine into a division (3 brigadesà 1 division, or regular unit) or a division may break down into 3 brigades. This is based on Mao Tse Tsung's 3-tiered doctrine of guerrilla warfare. Available to all chassis.
  
• Heavy- Gives various bonuses/penalties to each unit type. Note that a unit may be both 'brigade' and 'heavy' at the same time:

• -Inf/Mount/Motor/Mech receive +1 to all domains they affect & +20% hp's. This also increases the size of the unit for transport purposes.
  
• -Wooden hull receives bonuses as above to sea, land also if it can affect it. Also +50% cargo capacity.
  
• - Iron/Steel hulls receive +2 STR to land & sea, +1 to air (if applicable), and +1 HP (i.e. 10 points). Also +50% cargo.
  
• - Planes become heavy bombers, and may not engage air (they can have air STR for defense). They get all benefits of heavy bombers as described by me elsewhere, and all penalties. Non-heavy bombers that do not engage air are strike bombers (though most of these had minimal fighter capability). In addition, heavy allows planes to be transports with a minimal cargo capacity (1 in civ2/SMAC). They also get a larger operational area than non-heavy planes (x2 distance). Heavy bombers may not land on carriers.
  
• - Airships & Heli's get increased range and the cargo capacity of heavy bombers (airships get x3 distance). Increased space on carriers.
  
• - Missiles become intercontinental, and/or receive +50% STR to its domain. They also take up more space in transports.
  
• - Satellites, spacecraft, who knows? Bonus to STR?

• Cavalry contingent- This negates or decreases the bonus of mounted units in open terrain vs. infantry, and gives slight bonus vs. infantry w/o cavalry. In modern times refers to a helicopter contingent, which gives a bonus/ decreases penalty vs. all fast land units. Early version infantry only, modern version avail. w/ all land.
  
• Nomadic/Settler/Engineer- I think these should be Options to allow them to have combat STR. Nomads are as other have suggested: mobile cities of sorts with land STR. Settlers and engineers are separate, but this allows for them to have combat STR which is reasonable especially considering army engineer corps could fight if needed. Infantry/ mounted/Motorized only (unless sea/ space cities allowed).
  
• Immune to terrain is based off of the idea that some terrain causes damage to some units. This option would allow the unit to ignore the movement restrictions & resulting damage from the hostile terrain. Each type of terrain is individually chosen. All units may choose from these lists; units are assumed to have certain immunities built-in (air units are immune to mountains & swamps but not necessarily glaciers).
  
• No support- This is available to all chassis BUT the unit MUST have the 'brigade' option, or have been found as an NON-homed unit.
  
• Artillery- Has special abilities as described elsewhere (throw plague, poison bombs, tact nuke, plus attacks walls). Also uses its range as its bombard strength, and land STR vs. all other, non-artillery/bombard attacks.
  
• Camouflage- Again, all chassis may conceal, but only 'brigade' land units may conceal away from a hidden base. Hidden bases can conceal any unit, depending on type (hidden air bases conceal air, hidden naval bases conceal ships, etc.)
  
• Partisan- Inf/Mount/Motor 'brigade' only. Partisans have several modifiers: They cost no support, they may conceal, they are immune to terrain, and they can ign. ZOC's if undetected. However, the 'immune to terrain' only work in the owner's own territory & in territory previously owned. Therefore partisans can operate in the city squares of a city they used to own, but if they venture into true enemy territory they lose this bonus.
  
• Nuke- Since any chassis can really deploy a nuke, a unit Option makes it available to all. Also all nukes should be built (ex. Tactical nukes?) so no spy/ bomber missions to send in cheap nukes. Nukes are automatically single shot units.
  
• Single shot- All missiles & nukes are automatically single shot. Other units may be single shot weapons if the players decides to make them so (scenarios?).
  
• Nuke DEF- All units may carry nuke DEF option once the appropriate tech is researched. Aids game play as players likely to use nukes on targets other than cities. Maintenance of such DEF should be high, similar to SDI in cities, or not as effective.
  
• All units have basic scouting. This option increases the unit's recon ability (replaces see 2) by a percentage. See COMBAT for how I think scouting should work on strategic scale.
  
• May engage LASS: All units have certain domains that they may engage automatically. Land->land; Sea->sea; Air->land, sea; Space->space. When a unit buys points in a domain not of the it's own, this indicates the difficulty other units, from that domain, have damaging this unit. If the 'engage' option is chosen, the unit may now attack units operating in that domain. Units may also delete a free 'engage domain' option, useful for settlers/engineers/transports in reducing their costs.
  

2) LASS as before, but with range. There is a small bonus to the attacker because he initially controls the terms of engagement (about +10% STR). There are 2 methods of using range:

2a) Range is a function of the unit's domain (it's operating domain, not the one[s] it affects). Each difference between the ranges of the fighting units adds +1 to the STR of the higher unit. I prefer this method as it is simpler to understand and for reasons below;

2b) Range is a function of the unit's domain. Each difference allows one "free attack" by the higher unit. I don't like this version because it assumes too much on the part of the lower side: that it will charge from a distance and allow the other side these free opportunity shots. That it won't try to flank the other unit and destroy it supply lines, surprise it with a night raid, etc. IMO this would require a battle screen and many do not want this (though I think one would be helpful). Mainly it assumes the lesser unit might not try something tricky; that the unit might not have some method of hurting it not found in the normal doctrines of warfare.

3) Stacked combat w/ LASS:

3a) Command & Control: I'm using Diodorus Sicilius's ideas regarding min/maximums and overstacking. C&C starts at 4 units max in a stack w/o penalty, up to 30 units by game end. Any unit over this number faces a penalty to it's STR; I'll use a slightly different set of numbers ¾, ½, ¼, 1/8th, etc. What happens in this case is that the extra unit(s) face a to hit penalty: a unit w/ a ¾ modifier will successfully hit a target 75% of the time. A unit at 1/8th will hit it's target 12.5% of the time. FE, 6 units are attacking 3 units. The 1st four attackers get 100% chance of hitting their targets on a successful round of combat. The 6th unit has only a 50% chance of damaging it's target if it hits; if unsuccessful no damage is taken by either unit that round. These mods apply to both sides if over their C&C.

3b) Terrain: Modifies the max C&C in a tile.

• Grassland, Plains, Tundra = 100% C&C
  
• Desert = 75% C&C
  
• Hills, Swamp, Jungle = 50% C&C
  
• Mountains w/ pass = 25% C&C
  
• Mountains, Glacier = 20% C&C
  

3c) Forts, keeps, castles, have a max # of units allowed inside. City walls are unlimited, but all C&C's are limited by terrain type even in forts, etc.

4) Types of combat:

4a) Close combat: Compares the 2 units domain STRs vs. each other. Close combat can only be done by units operating in the same domain. Applies to all units. Units with a higher range than the enemy add +1 STR per point difference to their STR.

4b) Ranged units: Units with range may attack as artillery if they have an intervening barrier between them and their target (walls or friendly screening units). In this case they use their range as STR, and cannot be damaged by other units unless those units also have range. In this case the ranges are compared to each other as per normal civ2/SMAC rules for damage. Units may not fire at units engaged in combat with friendly units or your may hit your own troops; in any event your troops morale will decrease each time you fire into melee. City walls, forts may be used as a barrier for units using range.

4c) Artillery: As ranged except they always use their range for STR, unless attacked in close combat. Their range tends to be high as compared to normal land units. Artillery attacks can only be countered by other artillery; compare range vs. range as above to see who takes damage. Face the same restrictions on firing into melee.

4d) Units attacking another domain always attack as artillery but use their LASS factors for comparison.

5) Misc:

5a) Units from other squares can be included in a combat. Click on other squares before launching battle.

5b) After Combined Arms, units can use their special abilities to cover weaknesses of 2 other units. FE, helicopters may give their bonus vs. tanks to 2 other units in a stack.

posted August 30, 1999 19:35            

1.total damage taken
in one turn of combat
=atkpower(of atker)-defpower * attack able power(HP)of attacker * terren effect * Moral effect * training * evad effect * stack effect

which makes armour make sense

(unfinished)total disable power=
Attack power+disable power(of atker)-defpower * total power of(HP) attacker * evad * terren * training * Moral * stack effect / 10

explain later
2.fast units charge faster then slower units

3.impaired(disable)
When a unit is doing any thing it temporarily disable it's HP(power)in attacking.That including moving fighting or basicly anything. The effect last till the next turn.

Why would you need this kind of temporarily disableing in planted in to CIV3?Because this solves the Air/artillery problem.They usually impair the unit's fighting power and not kill it.

4.stacks
Stacked unit don't attack together but defend together

in order to make many unit together
a combat group or fleet and the group move
at the rate of the slowest unit in the group.they move,attack and defend to gether.

Stacking units should cause a small pennoty

4.Turns

The Attacker usualy gets to attack first
or even get a free turn or two if the unit is lucky.

The Defender gets first turn or a few free turns if the defended ambush the Attacker
or the Attacker is hasty(moved)

5. Defender gets bigger Terrain Bounse

Here is a Battle between three units

Attacker
Tank
HP 50- 10(disabled)
Attack power 20
Defence power 10
Mov 3
Range 5
Evd 1

VS
Defender

Maries
HP 30
Attack power 15
Defence power 15
Mov 2
Range 2
Evd 2
Mov 1
Field Gun
HP 20
Attack power 5
Disable power 15
Defence power 5
Range 5
Evd 0
Mov 1

Re no moral/terran/training effects counted

Turn 1
*surprise attack tank get a free turn*
tank fires at marines at range 5
marines HP=HP-((20-15)*(50-10)*(10-1/10)
atk-def*Hp-disable *evad
=30-18=12
Tank disable out unit of marines
marines HP=12 -1
Turn 2
marines out of range to attack.It moves forward 2 tiles now tanks are 3 tiles away

Field gun fires at tank Does no damage to
tank. disables ((5+15-10)*20*(10-1/10)/10=18
So now the Tank's HP=50 -28

posted August 31, 1999 16:36            

Battle Board or Battle Display.
CtP had a not bad idea, but as usual with that game, mucked up the execution. Note that a Battle Display can quickly lead to micromanagement or a game unbalanced in favor of a human player: I’ll deal with specifics on that as we get to them.

The Simple Battle Board.
The display has 15 tiles on a side for units. They are arranged in 3 rows, each 5 wide. They are labeled Right Flank, Right Center, Center, Left Center, Left Flank, and, from nearest the enemy: Front, Support, Reserve (row).
Ranged units are identified with 2 possible ranges: Short and Long. Short Ranged units (bows, muskets, rifles, machineguns, tanks) can range 2 rows (own support to enemy front, for example). Long Range units (catapults, cannon, artillery, howitzers) can range 3 rows (own support to enemy support, for example). With suitable advances, like Radio applied to Tactics, aircraft can be assigned to the army and used as Ranged Units to hit anything in the display. -This should not include Heavy Bombers until the late modern period, perhaps after an Advance like RADAR and Computers (digital commo).
Simple Battles. You assign your troops to their tiles. You must occupy the Front row, starting with the Center tile and covering the entire enemy front to either side if you have enough units. Ranged units with no attack factor (archers, catapults) go in the Support row. All units have Default Orders, similar to the AI Usage assigned to units in CivII: mobile units Attack, infantry units Defend.
This can be modified for certain units, as follows:
Horse Archers: Default Orders Evade - they retreat in front of an attack, firing as they go. If enemy keeps attackng, they may leave the field without loss.
Legion or Phalanx: Default Orders Attack - these were assault units, though infantry.
Horse Artillery (see Units Thread): Default Orders Evade - these mobile units advance to close range and attack, limber up and Evade if attacked.
Knights, Crusaders, Fanatics: Default Orders All Out Attack - unless the General is stacked with them, these units attack straight ahead, don’t stop attackng until they are off the board or destroyed. They cannot be given Defend Orders or turned.
If only Default Orders are used, then after you set up, push de button, and the battle fights itself. IF you want to micromanage some, and unbalance the game in favor of the Human player versus the AI, then allow units to be given any order you desire. This makes the Human-controlled army much more flexible, especially if you have a General with a Reserve.
Generals. If separate units, can be stacked or attached in the same tile with any other unit. Default would be Center Front, Support, or Reserve row. If in reserve with a unit, that unit can be given any desired orders regardless of type.
If any unit reaches the enemy Front, Support, or Reserve row, other than those All Out types listed above, it may turn and attack enemy units in the flank or rear. Big bonuses in this attack. Also, any enemy unit sitting in your Front, Support, or Reserve row causes Morale loss in your army, may cause troops to quit the field (retreat regardless of your wishes) - Morale loss gets worse the further back the enemy gets.
Certain units get Pursuit Effects: all mobile units, with pluses for really fast stuff: Light Cavalry, Horse Archers, Light Armor, Motorized Units, etc. If the enemy starts to retreat away from battle, they can be ordered or go Default Order: Pursue. They attack the retreaters with major combat bonuses. Historically, most losses were when trying to disengage and retreat.

If all of this were adopted, Humans would get a lot more control and probably a serious advantage over the AI in battles involving multiple units. Therefore, Battle Control should probably be an Option which lowers your Civ Score for Conquest, since it makes it easier.
Finally, the Battle Board display should reflect the terrain tile in which the battle takes place. If the defending army is in a river tile, that river should appear across its front, with suitable Defensive Bonuses. In Forest/Woods maptile, then the battlefield should have woods in certain tiles (random, not all or most armies couldn’t fight at all!). Woods tiles are impassable to most Mobile units. In farmed or improved maptiles, a village or two should appear (random) which can form Strong Points for foot units (defensive bonuses). Woods and villages block Short Range fire. Other possible terrain effects could be added ad nauseum, but it makes the display more and more complicated, and if the player is setting up his troops, more terrain gives the human player more and more of an advantage over the AI.
This adoption, with the CtP stacked unit system modified perhaps by General units (see earlier posts in Units/Combat threads) would also do away with the problems associated with the 'all or nothing' multiple unit combat in CivII.
Multiple Unit Naval battles can use the same type of Battle Board, but obviously without the terrain. In the ancient period almost no units would have Range effects (a few Polyremes with catapults, perhaps) in the Gunpowder period Short Ranges, and in the modern period all Long Range (keep your aircraft carriers in the Reserve Row!). Tactical variations in naval combat might be to give major bonuses to short range attacks by destroyers, Fire Triremes/Polyremes and Submarines ('Greek Fire' projectors, torpedo attacks).
Air battle Battle Display would be a simple line up: fighters attack, Bombers defend, if you have fighters with bombers the fighters go in the Front row as escorts which have to be cleared away before the enemy gets to the bombers. Flank attracks do not apply, since each air unit represents a formation of aircraft already, in which aircraft will maneuver independantly.
I am not myself certain that all of this should be adopted as a whole.I do think that a Land Battle Display reflecting the actual terrain fought on, with some option for initial set-up by the player and Flank, Pursuit, and multiple-range effects would add a great flavor to the battles without excessive Micromanagement.

posted September 06, 1999 17:53            

Contributors: Francis, Mr. Bigglesworth, Eggman, Diodorus Sicilus, Ember, Darkstarr, Mo, Flavor Dave, AXM, NotLikeTea, Theben, Mingko, Redleg, Cybershy, Goob, Frank Johnson, Shining1, delcuze2, Trachmyr, don Don, Mhistbuff, Warspite, Ecce Homo, VaderTwo, Jon Miller, Sieve Too, Bell, feanor, Pythagoras, Black Dragon, Pathless1, Ove, Jimmy, Picker, Alexander’s Horse, korn469, Hans2, FinnishGuy, Agent 000, Jakester, E, Miner, Knight_Errant, Victor Galis, Depp, Icedan, technophile, Snowfire, Iceman88888888, Westergaard, marc420, raingoon, M@ni@c, SWPIGWANG

This is the summary of the COMBAT threads v1.2-v2.0. There is quite a bit of overlap between COMBAT and UNITS—I should know, I did them both (>cringe<), and there is also a good amount of overlap into the MOVEMENT AND SUPPLY thread. There is additional overlap among the RADICAL and MISCELLANEOUS threads, and I’m sure there’s some COMBAT scattered elsewhere, I’m just not certain where that may be.

There were several complete combat systems proposed by posters (including the TM himself), and so I have New Combat Systems its own section and have kept each new combat system complete as a tribute to their respective authors. Besides that I have divided up the summary as I have seen fit, and have given explanations as to what the specific sections contain where I felt it necessary.

1. New Combat Systems

1.1. LASS (Land, Air, Sea, Space):
The primary intention of this combat system was to address two aspects of the ATT/DEF system—one, why doesn’t the attacker’s DEF or the defender’s ATT affect the outcome of the battle? and two, how can a Legion destroy, let alone damage, a Bomber? The heart and soul of LASS is that each unit is given 4 stats (land, air, sea, space), and these stats detail both the attack AND the defense of the unit against enemy units from the domain in question. For instance, a unit with LASS of 1/2/3/4 being attacked from the air would use “2” as its defense, and if that same unit attacked the sea it would use “3” as its attack. Note, however, that having a stat in a particular domain does not necessarily mean that the unit can attack that domain.

1.1.1. The Design Workshop: (note that there is a LOT of overlap between this and UNITS, but like I said, I’m keeping the combat systems intact. For a complete listing of unit chassises, options, ideas, etc., go to the UNITS thread)
The unit design workshop would look as follows:
L/A/S/S running down the left side,
The unit picture in the middle,
Hit Points, Firepower, Range, and Movement on the middle right side,
All unit OPTIONS on the far right (a unit can have unlimited options)
--You should be able to change a unit’s chassis without having to transfer to a separate chassis screen. This is to help slower computers and speed up customization.

1.1.2. Unit Chassises:
Land: Infantry, Mounted, Motorized, Mechanized;
Sea: Wooden Hull, Iron Hull, Steel Hull;
Air: Plane, Airship, Helicopter, Missile;
Space: Satellite, Spacecraft;

1.1.3. Unit Options:
I know, I know, I said I’d keep the combat systems intact. I lied. Go to the Units thread in the Special Abilities sections, especially Land, for detailed descriptions of any unit options used below.

1.1.4. Range:
The attacker, who initially controls the terms of engagement, gains +10% to its strength in the appropriate domain.
Two possibilities for how range can be used:
a. Absolute Value of (attacker’s range-defender’s range) = the bonus given to the unit with the greater range.
b. Absolute Value of (attacker’s range-defender’s range) = the number of free attacks given to the unit with the greater range.
Theben prefers choice “a”, as “b” assumes that the unit with the lower range will charge blindly into battle even though this is not always the case.

1.1.5. Stacking: (credit given to Diodorus Sicilus) Note: Also see UNITS sect. 1.2 Commanding Units
a. Command and Control: at beginning there are 4 units max in a stack without strength penalties and by game’s end, with the advent of communications and organizational technology, there can be up to 30 units in a stack without strength penalties. After the max is exceeded each successive unit suffers a severe “to-hit” penalty.
b. Terrain: Some terrain makes it more difficult to keep control of an army. The following numbers are the modifiers used to determine the maximum number of unpenalized units in a stack in certain terrain types.
Grassland, Plains, Tundra = 100%
Desert = 75%
Hills, Swamp, Jungle = 50%
Mountains w/Pass = 25%
Mountains, Glacier = 20%
Roads increase terrain up one category to a maximum of 100%
Forts, keeps, and castles have a maximum number of units allowed inside. City walls can contain an unlimited number of units.

1.1.6. Combat Resolution:
a. Close Combat: Compares the 2 units’ domain STR’s vs. each other. Close combat can only be done by units operating in the same domain.
b. Ranged units may attack as artillery if they have a wall or friendly units screening them from the enemy. You may not fire into a melee in which your own troops have already been engaged. When used as ranged units Artillery use their Range as their STR, and can only be countered by other artillery.
c. Units attacking another domain always attack as artillery but use their LASS factors for comparison.

1.1.7. Misc. LASS:
a. Units from other squares can be included in a combat. Click on the other squares before launching into battle.
b. After tech advance Combined Arms, units can use their special abilities to cover weaknesses of 2 other units: FE, helicopters may give their bonus vs. tanks to 2 other units in a stack.
c. After combat, units of the same type which have been sufficiently damaged will combine to form one unit. FE, 2 units with 20 HP’s each have each taken 10 damage. After combat they will combine to form 1 20HP unit.
d. If air or sea units are the only units remaining in a city when attacked by ground forces, they bombard for 1 round and then must evacuate. They have a %chance of escape—air units which escape are put in the nearest friendly city, while ships that escape are moved a few squares away. Some of these air or sea units may be captured.

1.2. CLAS-D (Close/Land/Air/Sea/Defense): A modification on LASS

1.2.1. Close is for non-ranged, within domain fighting. Example, two legions fighting.

1.2.2. LAS (Land/Air/Sea) is for ranged combat against the domain in question. All air combat is considered ranged.

1.2.3. Defense is the amount that the opponent’s combat rating is reduced. This will make certain modern units invulnerable to attack from ancient units (tank vs. phalanx).

1.2.4. The Combat Algorithms:
Each round a randomly generated number between 1 and 100 is chosen for each combatant. If it is equal to or less than their modified combat rating, the other unit takes combat damage equal to their FP. Close combat is always to the death. Ranged combat runs until the attacker loses a certain % of its pre-attack HP.

1.2.5. Initiative:
Attackers will usually get a bonus due to initiative, but terrain may reduce this bonus down to zero.

Infantry gain +25%, +50% vs. cities and forts.
Mobile units gain +50%.
River, hill, forest, etc. take away –25%.
Mountains, glaciers, etc. take away –50%.
Fortification gives +50%.

1.2.6. Stacking:
The main attacker is the unit used to launch an attack, and the main defender is the one with the highest combat rating (or the one pre-designated as the main defender). If the main unit is an infantry type the auxillary unit is a mobile type, and vice-versa if the main unit is mobile. For naval combat most ships qualify as both. The ranged unit on each side is the one with the best applicable LAS rating. The attacker initiates combat and uses 1 MP. The auxillary unit adds x0.5 times its close rating to the main unit. Every 4th turn the damage taken goes to the auxillary unit instead of the main unit. The ranged unit makes an attack every 3rd round. The auxillary and ranged units use 1/3 of an MP.

1.2.7. Bombardment:
Just because a unit has the L/A/S rating doesn’t mean it can attack a domain. For example, cannon can only attack land, even though they have a high S rating—this is because if a ship attack a land square with a cannon, the cannon can fire back once the ship is in range. Bombards can damage terrain and city improvements, but with little accuracy (you don’t know what’s going to be damaged) until later techs allow for greater accuracy. Air attack is considered bombardment--an airplane never leaves a city, it just extends an "area of effect" around it. Bombardment lasts for a number of rounds proportional to the health of the attacker, since damaged artillery cause less damage than healthy artillery.

1.2.8. Raids:
Raids are similar to bombards, except they are conducted by mobile units using their C (close) rating.

1.2.9. Defense:
Dragoons, riflemen, ships of the line are the first units to receive any defense rating (1-2). Mech inf., Cruisers, Carriers, Marines, Stealths have a medium amount (2-3)
Tanks, Battleships, Subs, Advanced Stealths have the most (3-5).
Defense results in an automatic reduction in %chance to hit on the part of the attacker.

1.2.10. Air Combat:
All air units have 1 MP, and can use this to launch an assault, assist in 2-3 ground/naval assaults within their range, redeploy (move to a new city), or intercept an incoming assault (this last only requires a fraction of a MP to remain, so conceivably a unit can assault and defend on the same turn). Air units never leave their base, they act as extremely long ranged artillery and have an area of effect roughly equal to half of their range (move points).

1.2.11. Helicopters:
These take x2 damage in air combat, can transport 1 infantry unit into battle, can act as a ranged unit, and can spot subs (%chance variable with tech and range from sub).

1.2.12. Penalties to Air Attacks:
-25% for hills, forests, etc.
-50% for mountains, etc.
Additional -25% if unit is infantry (bombers attacking infantry on a mountain would receive –75% to the amount of damage they could deal).
Spies cannot be directly attacked by ranged combat.

1.2.13. Misc.:
Buildings have HP and are damaged by combat.
Repairs cost money for both units and buildings. Units cannot be repaired in enemy territory.
Population can be bombarded, each pop point has 10-20 HP.

2.0. Unit Modifiers
Not everybody was calling for a brand new combat system; some were content with simply adding a few modifiers to the existing system in order to simulate more complexity, realism, and enjoyment (actually, some favored doing nothing to the combat system, and I make note of their wish here on the wish-list. “Do Nothing To Combat.” There, it’s been said.)
Here is a list of the additional combat modifiers some posters were calling for in Civ III. Unlike the completely revamped combat systems described above, these ideas were for the most part completely separate and individual, and so many of them are exclusionary to one another. Be forewarned.

2.1. Recon/Scouting:
Ability of a unit to make out an enemy’s size/composition. Also modifies the site range of unit.

2.2. Bombardment Range:
For Strategic Combat: The number of squares distant that a unit can fire upon. The current restrictions to having only “Range 1-2” units, units which can only bombard 1-2 squares away, is far too limiting. Modern naval units can bombard several squares away, as can some modern artillery.
For Tactical Combat (see below): The number of squares down the battle board that the unit can fire.
Range not only determines maximum range, but also effectiveness of firing at any range. For example, a unit with range 5 firing 1 square away is more accurate than a unit with range 1 firing 1 square away.

2.3. Firing Range:
Allows free attacks and/or an attack bonus to be given to the side with the greater Firing Range. For example, a Machine Gun Next (FR 6) fighting a Phalanx (FR 1) would receive either 6 free attacks or a +60% (arbitrary number) attack bonus. Another Possibility: Have 3 arbitrary settings—melee, short, long, with the settings determining position on the battlefield.

2.4. Morale:
Morale should be replaced by Experience.

2.5. Rate of Fire:
Number of attacks per turn. Makes the free turns you accumulate from Firing Range really add up.

2.6. Accuracy:
The chance that an attack made will land. FP would determine the damage caused.

2.7. Evade/Retreat:
Chance a defender has of evading an attack. Also measures a unit’s ability to retreat (low Evade results in heavy losses when the unit retreats, as it has been routed and the units scatter every which way, and sometimes units fail to retreat altogether).

2.8. Maneuverability:
Might warrant its own stat, might be best left as part of MP. Determines how well the unit can maneuver around the battlefield. Gives a bonus to the side with greater maneuverability. Additional MP’s can be spend in order to increase Maneuverability for a battle—this would be to simulate moving into position before the battle actually took place. For example, if an infantry unit were attacking a cavalry unit, the cavalry unit would ordinarily have a greater Maneuverability due to its increased MP’s. However, the infantry could spend an additional MP (i.e. wait a turn and delay the attack) in order to move into a position of greater maneuverability and negate the maneuverability bonus of the Cavalry. A unit would only have so much Maneuverability to “spend”, which means that a unit which is repeatedly attacked will begin to suffer defense penalties (actually, the attackers will receive attack bonuses) because the defender is becoming outmaneuvered.

3. Unit Orders
This bleeds over into the “should combat be tactical or strategic” argument, which is detailed below. Some posters are in favor of being able to issue orders to their units above and beyond the present range of “fortify, sentry, pillage” by adding such orders as “blitz, siege”, and others. Some of these posters were hoping to bridge the gap between tactical and strategic combat by allowing players to issue orders so that their units would fight better, possibly with the option of viewing the combat. Other posters, particularly those who gave suggestions for “air unit orders” (i.e. bombers and fighters) were just hoping to make the game more enjoyable by fixing what many view as a flaw (the fact that bombers cannot attack and return on the same turn).
An additional note—if Commanding Units and/or Famous Generals are used (see Units 1.1 and 1.2), then these commanders could be given special abilities in certain types of warfare, meaning that General Bob might give a bonus for a Blitzing army but not a Besieging army.

3.1. Land Unit Orders:
Some of the orders below speak of “supply loss.” This belongs more to the “Movement and Supply” thread, but some posters have suggested that units have a supply bar in addition to their health bar, with low supplies translating into poor combat stats. The numbers used in some Unit Orders below are assuming that each unit has 100 supplies when full.

3.1.1. Besiege:
This is to augment combat in the mid-game. Your units surround an enemy city with their ZOC. Issuing the actual “siege” command would reduce trade, food, and shields going into that city, but would also make the units laying siege require more supplies. A siege is useless unless you have enough units placed around the city, the number being proportional to the population of the city. The more units you add after this critical number is reached, the fewer supplies go in, until soon the city is starving. When this occurs there is a %chance each turn, based on SE choices, city improvements, cultural differences, level at which city is defended, and happiness of city population that the city will surrender and join your Civ. When you capture the city after a siege, there is a high probability that the city will be Plundered (see 3.4 below) by your troops, the probability based on whether a leader is present, the experience level of the troops, how well they have been supplied, and how long the siege has lasted. Some suggest that a siege require a siege weapon (catapult, etc.), although usually a siege means that the city is not being attacked but starved out and a catapult would not be used. Sieges would count as a minor atrocity. City can be supplied by air or sea if sea blockade is not set up and if AA mechanisms are not in place (or cannot be used).

3.1.2. Concealment:
Especially useful if every unit has a base Concealment value and if Camouflage is a special option in the Units workshop. Shift + C would order the unit to conceal (denoted by a small ‘c’ in the upper left hand corner of the unit box), which would reduce its movement by 50% (usually—there are exceptions to this, like alpine troops in mountains) and its chance to conceal by 25% or 50%. Concealed units are difficult to detect, like subs, and gain +50% to ATT when launching an attack out of concealment. Due to the movement restrictions, however, this order would be issued more for safety and surprise than for the ATT bonus, which only lasts for one combat round anyway. Some units have base concealment PEANALTIES, so issuing a concealment order would effectively give them a 0% chance of concealing. Also, concealing multiple units in a square increases the chances that they will be detected (example: 1 unit, 50% chance of detection; 2 units, 90% chance of detection; 3 units, 98% chance of detection; etc.).

3.1.3. Scouting:
Especially useful if every unit has a base Scouting/Recon value and if Scouting is a special option in the Units workshop. Shift + S would order the unit to scout (denoted by a small ‘s’ in the upper right hand corner of the unit box) and reduces the unit’s movement by 50% (if scouting and concealment are both issued the unit moves at 25% MP) and increases the unit’s scouting value also. Scouting increases the unit’s ability to detect ambushes and other concealed units, and also can increase the line of sight of a unit.
The boardgame Flattop had “scouting levels” which could be adapted to Civ III. The better the scouting ability of a unit, the higher the level of scouting performed.
Lvl. 1: Something is there, but you don’t know what or how many.
Lvl. 2: You are given a number between ½ and 2x the actual number of enemy units in the square.
Lvl. 3: You are given a more accurate reading on the number of units, and you have identified some of them.
Lvl. 4: You have all information on stacks in that square.

3.1.4. Fortify:
Fortifying is what you do when you’re in for the long haul, and requires construction in order to be performed. ‘F’ issues the Fortify command, at which the following occurs—
a. The unit’s ATT and DEF are reduced by 50% for the next two turns…
b. After the two turns are up, the unit’s DEF is SIGNIFICANTLY increased (if there is a fortress in the square and the terrain is fit for defense, the unit’s DEF may increase several times over)…
c. The unit cannot attack while fortified. When the Fortify command is broken, the unit cannot attack until the following turn, but the unit loses its DEF bonuses the same turn that it breaks the command.
d. Fortified armies will never retreat, because they usually can’t.
Fortified armies get additional bonuses when Engineering and Modern Warfare are discovered. A fortified unit gains +50% to Scouting but cannot conceal. Fortified units require 5 supplies per turn and 5 per attack.

3.1.5. Hold:
This is like the present Fortify command—you issue this when you know you’re about to get attacked (or highly suspect it) and want your unit to get prepared for combat (putting up makeshift breastworks and such). ‘H’ issues the Hold order, which increases DEF but also gives a unit –50% to ATT. Holding units are less likely to break and be routed. A holding unit gains +25% to Scouting but cannot conceal. Holding units require 5 supplies per turn, 10 per battle.

3.1.6. Delay:
For when you know you’re going to die before the fight even begins, but want to slow down the attacker. ‘D’ issues the Delay order, which causes units to gain a bonus to DEF and a penalty to ATT (although the bonus is not as large as for Holding units, and a Delaying unit receives only half of the benefits of a Fortress), and also gain a +75% bonus to their Retreat ability (or their chances to retreat). A Delaying unit that retreats will still be Delaying in the new tile that it occupies. For every 10% of its health that it loses, a Delaying unit loses 5% from its ability to retreat. If a Delaying unit fails to retreat it’s DEF bonuses are cancelled and it is given –50% to DEF, which effectively kills the unit. Delaying units require 5 supplies per turn, 10 per battle, 30 per retreat.

3.1.7. Ambush:
An Ambushing unit is one that conceals itself in a tile and hits the enemy hard and fast, doing as much damage as possible before retreating (or finishing the job if it can). ‘A’ issues the Ambush order, which increases the unit’s Concealment by 75% and its Retreat by 50%. When an enemy unit enters the Ambushed square, if the Ambush has not been detected, then the Ambushing unit(s) gain a massive DEF bonus and are no longer concealed (although Ambushing units cannot make use of Fortresses). If, however, the Ambush has been detected, then the Ambushing unit loses its Retreat bonus and is given a –50% penalty to DEF. Ambushers require 10 supplies per turn while waiting (the supplies must be moved in a concealed fashion).

3.1.8. Raid:
Raids are designed to reduce the ability of an enemy to supply itself, thus softening up an enemy for direct attack later. It damages the supply bars of enemy units more than the units’ health bars, and is also used to pillage occupied terrain. Shift + R issues the Raid order, which gives the attacker a small ATT bonus and reduces the DEF penalties given to the defender from Terrain and Fortresses; the raider is also given +75% to Retreat and an extra move point for the turn. Only units with 2 or more movement points can Raid, and a Raid cannot be conducted two turns in a row—the turn after a raid, the Raiding unit is flagged for you (and a well scouted enemy) to see, and is given a –25% penalty to DEF (the horses are tired or something). 10% of the damage caused by a raid is done to the defending unit(s), 40% is done to those unit(s) supplies, and the other 50% is done to the tile’s Terrain Improvements or the city’s City Improvements and population. If the Raider fails to retreat from battle then it gets –50% to ATT for the remainder of the turn and the rest of the damage it causes is done exclusively to the defender(s). This costs 10 supplies per move but increases your supplies proportional to the supply damage you cause for each attack.

3.1.9. Blitz:
Maybe your enemy is delaying you, or maybe you’re sick of the enemy retreating and repairing. That’s what Blitzing is for. Shift + B issues the Blitz order, which increases the ATT of the Blitzing unit, reduces the Retreat ability of the enemy, and allows you to instantly occupy the newly conquered square without using additional move points. Only units with 3 or more move points can Blitz. Blitzing units get a –25% DEF penalty for the turn after the Blitz, but unlike Raids a unit can Blitz as often as it wants. Additionally, ambushes do double to triple damage to a Blitz. This costs 15 supplies per move, 30 per attack.

3.1.10. Devastate:
Unlimited War, Scorched Earth, call it whatever you want, this order blows the heck out of everything in sight. Shift + D will issue this order. If the Devastating unit is defending it gets a larger bonus than if it is attacking, since house-to-house fighting favors the defense. So, the Defender will receive +1% x (number of city improvements) + 1% x (population of city) + 15% to DEF in a city (this would make a city like New York pretty difficult to take), while in open terrain the defender will receive +4% x (number of terrain improvements in square) + 15% to DEF. An attacker who is Devastating will receive +10% to ATT (pretty lousy, huh?) but will also halve the defender’s Devastate bonus (if any). Devastation will rip a square to shreds, destroying CI’s, TI’s, and population. If both armies are using Devastation the damage will be more than doubled, which means that if two devastating armies fought in New York the city would be pretty much leveled when they were done with it.

3.1.11. Push:
For when you HAVE to get where you’re going. Shift + P orders an army to Push, which increases the unit’s MP’s by 60%, damages the unit slightly, and lowers the unit’s ATT and DEF. A Pushing unit must be issued the command at the beginning of its turn. Each move that a unit is Pushed will cost it 40 supplies, which will effectively drain almost any unit’s supply bar.

3.2. Air Unit Orders:
As stated above, most of these were given in order to allow bombers to attack and return on the same turn.

3.2.1. Bombard:
Air unit bombards a specific unit. May reduce city population if attacking a city. Cannot bombard a concealed unit. Biplanes have only this mission and support/intercept available.

3.2.2. Scorched Earth:
Attacks buildings and population of city. May attempt to target specific city structures for greater risk of failure. In country, pillages terrain. Laser-targeting and perhaps other tech advances (like satellite mapping) will increase chance of success. Heavy Bomber does more damage than regular aircraft.

3.2.3. Interdict:
Heavy Bombers only. Target one or more squares: any unit (friend or foe) in or attempting to pass through squares is attacked by the bomber and expends triple MP’s to enter and leave. The more squares that are selected, the less effective the interdiction. Interdiction causes less damage than bombardment.

3.2.4. Air Support/Intercept:
Air unit acts as artillery in combat as support for ground forces, during the attack or defense. Range of this action is ½ the Range of the aircraft. Fighters may be put on Intercept duty (like Sentry duty) and would attack any enemy aircraft that entered their range. Humans would be allowed to save their intercept until later. Fighters may also be sent to intercept in the same square where the bombers are supporting, which would help reduce enemy interception capability. Effectiveness of this order is determined by present level of Communications and Tactical tech advances.

3.2.5. Carpet Bombing:
Attacks ONE unit in a square with intent to destroy it. (note that if Heavy Bombers are used then either Bombing Runs or Bombardment will have to be modified). Unit attacked is semi-random (who gets attacked is based partly on which unit is easiest to spot), and effectiveness of attack is partly determined by how easy it is to spot the unit which is attacked. In order of hardest to spot + destroy to easiest: Spy/Scout/Diplomat, Settler/Engineer, Infantry, Caravan/Freight, Cavalry/Mounted unit, Mech/Armor unit.

3.2.6. Strategic Bombing:
Attacks a specific unit, a square with TI’s, or a city. Only available with certain tech advances, such as Targeting Radar or Photo Reconnaissance. Additional tech advances, such as Satellite Mapping and Laser-Targeting, make Strategic Bombing more likely to succeed.

3.2.7. Air Transport:
Air unit moves ground units around.

3.2.8. Rest:
Air unit heals and cannot defend.

3.2.9. Redeploy:
Air unit starts next turn in a new city.

3.3. Naval Orders:
Not much talk on these, except that they get some of the same orders as Land Units, such as Besiege, Scout, and Conceal.

3.4. Conquest Orders:
As it stands, when you conquer a city it’s yours whether you want it or not. This must change. Maybe you don’t want the city at all and would prefer to set it free or burn it to the ground, or maybe you want to sack the city so that Partisans cannot attack you so easily (they can’t be supplied as well). These orders wouldn’t really make the game more tedious, since you don’t capture cities that often and a box pops up whenever you capture one anyway.

3.4.1. Occupy:
Same as what happens now when you enter a city, although with the new system perhaps Occupation will result in zero population loss and zero structural damage, but also zero income received. The default order.

3.4.2. Plunder:
Resupplies your army using the city’s resources (works well if a supply bar is used). Besieging armies will often do this automatically. Increases income (unless this is siphoned off by soldiers), destroys more buildings and kills more civilians, and reduces the likelihood that Partisans will appear.

3.4.3. Sack:
Same as Plunder, but also Liberates the city.

3.4.4. Liberate:
You put the city in the hands of a puppet government which is initially friendly to you. The city will take care of defending itself, and Partisans (opposed to you) are less likely to appear. The city will, essentially, become a barbarian city. Will not work if the city was exceptionally loyal to its past Civ, as it will simply rejoin it.

3.4.5. Raze:
Burn the city to the ground! Doesn’t cause as much unhappiness or as many diplomatic repercussions as it would if you occupied the city and then razed it (as was an option in SMAC). Here, you “accidentally” destroy the city while taking it over.

4. Stacking

4.1. Stacking Proposal 1:
Stacking is just a way to lump units together in order to make warmongering easier to do in the Railroad age. Units still attack and defend separately. Units in a stack may begin to retreat if their fellow stack units are being destroyed.

4.2. Stacking Proposal 2:
Stacking is a way to lump units together and allow them to augment each other’s abilities. Stacks receive a bonus for having certain combinations of units (air, mobile, artillery, defense, for example), and more than one unit will attack at a time (10 knights will not attack with 40 ATT, but instead the first knight will use its full strength, the second will use ½ strength, the third will use ¼ strength, the fourth will use 1/8 strength…). Also, stacks from different squares can be combined in a battle (a battleship can be used to assist in a tank battle, for instance).

4.3. The Size of Stacks:
Some argue that there should be an arbitrary limit to the number of units in a stack in order to prevent Uberstacks from being formed. Proposed numbers range from 4 to 9.
Others argue that the size limit in stacks should be increased as technology allows for better movement and supply of stacks.
Another suggestion, put in 1.2 of UNITS, is that the level of commander present determines how many units can be combined in a stack, with better commanders becoming available with tech advances and costing more money for upkeep. For example, an Imperator would require very few tech advances to create and would be relatively cheap, whereas a Field Marshall with a Staff would be hideously costly in technology, resources, and money, but would be vastly superior to an Imperator in abilities.

4.4. Collateral Damage:
Idea 1 is that all the units receive collateral damage regardless of their participation in the combat.
Idea 2 is that units will receive collateral damage proportional to the amount that they contributed to the battle, i.e. if a unit used ¼ of its ATT to augment the main attacker’s ATT, then that unit would receive less collateral damage than the unit using ½ of its ATT for augmentation.

5. Misc:
These are things that weren’t discussed enough to warrant their own section, at least not if I wanted to finish this summary sometime this year.

5.1. Retreat:
This is already a proposed Unit Modifier, something that varies from unit to unit and can be viewed. It shows the ability of a unit to retreat from combat without taking additional losses from confusion and/or stupidity.

5.2. More on Retreating:
You should be able to issue orders during combat for your unit(s) to retreat. This can be done by slowing down combat. Sometimes your unit(s) will retreat on their own, such as if they are Raiding or if they’re raw recruits and have been routed. Experience often determines whether they’ll be routed or not.

5.3. Pursuit:
Only mobile (2 or more MP’s) can pursue. Pursuit will cause a great deal of damage to the enemy—it has been pointed out that historically most casualties were dealt while an army was attempting to retreat. Stacking can make pursuit more difficult, as can delaying tactics, as the former brings artillery to bear against the pursuers and the latter lets the ground troops cover their own tracks.

5.4. Repairs:
If Retreat is a combat option then there may be a problem if repairs remain free. Many suggest that once a unit reaches a critical level of health then it can no longer be repaired for free but requires inputs of shields and/or gold.

5.5. ZOC:
Military units cannot take advantage to spy/partisan immunity to ZOC’s.
Concealed units give off no ZOC.
Units with a critical level of health give no ZOC.

5.6. Bombardment:
The number of rounds that a bombardment proceeds is proportional to the health of the bombard unit. This is because severely damaged units do not have the firepower necessary to mount a massive offensive.
Bombardment should be able to destroy units, although as the enemy unit decreases in health the odds of it being destroyed should also decrease.
Bombardment should cause less damage to infantry and fortified units than cavalry and moving units.
Some units have more than 1 square of range (V2’s and battleships, for example.)

5.7. Navy:
Ships should have greatly increased movements in order to speed things up.

5.8. Communications:
Until modern communications are developed, you should not have direct control over your armies once they have wandered out of a certain range of your border. These units can be issued “standing orders” and will be left in charge of their commander, who will send reports back occasionally. These armies could not be affected by you in tactical combat.

5.9. Structural Damage:
City Improvements and Terrain Improvements have hit points proportional to their technological age, upkeep, and the number of shields required for them to be built. Bombardment and Raids, as well as many other forms of combat, will damage these, and once they reach a critical point they are rendered useless (once they reach 0 hit points, they are destroyed). It costs gold and/or shields to repair these, although some repair work is automatic and it is almost always cheaper to repair than to replace.

5.10. Each turn should be divided into several different phases, such as the movement phase, the combat phase, the counterattack phase, and the final movement phase. This adds some simultaneity to the game while preserving its turn based atmosphere.

5.11. Missiles should not work like airplanes, but should instead be transported on the ground and then launched once.

5.12. Units should have a loyalty factor. Generals especially. Disloyal units might rebel and either join the enemy or start their own Civ.

5.13. Make certain that nuke, bio, and chem warfare is not too powerful. This is easily done by increasing the diplomatic penalties to be equal to the power of the weapons.

5.14. Air units should not get DEF modifiers from terrain and forts when flying overhead.

5.15. Allied units should be able to stack with each other. Who controls the stack is determined when the stack is formed. This could be like leasing units to a friendly civ (an idea in UNITS).

5.16. Use a 3D sphere for the world and have all terrain in 3D. Then add “altitude” factors to units to state how high they can shoot (or how high they fly). Cities will no longer collect resources from production radiuses but from production spheres, as they will be able to dig to deeper depths and farm in the clouds using future technology. Unit ZOC’s will be spheroids or paraboloids, which means that an airplane can fly over a phalanx without violating the phalanx’s ZOC.

5.17. Combat will be resolved by swapping attacker and defender multiple times during the battle until one side retreats or dies.

5.18. A stalemate is one of the possible outcomes of a battle.

5.19. Be able to change home cities anytime, anyplace, in order to help in support.

5.20. In a Democracy or Republic, units cause unhappiness by being outside of their Civ’s borders, not by leaving the home city.

6. Strategic vs. Tactical
Should Civ III be Strategic combat or Tactical combat? The unit orders given in 3.x were one way to resolve this debate. The other resolutions are that Civ III is Strategic, which will not be described here since it has already been described in Civ I and II, and the other resolution is that combat is Tactical, which shall be described below.

posted September 07, 1999 13:05            

Ranged combat runs for rounds proportional to the HP of the attacker. Thus damaged artillery and bombers are not as effective.

AIR combat
All air units exist only in cities/bases/carriers. This is important for understanting the rest that is there.

When attacking they do not leave the base, they act as long range artillery.
Combat rounds is proportional to HP.

Ranges of air units indicate how far they can strike. Their auto-defend range is ~half that. Figters defend agains any air strike in their defend range, bombers attack any ships/land units that enter their range.