posted May 23, 1999 19:30                

Wherein we shall discuss various methods of keeping the people firmly under our heels. This is a summary of the posts in Social Engineering ver1.0 and CIV3: Starting a list for social choices. (Note: I haven't included any of the religious discussions in this summary, since religion has its own thread now. All future discussion on that topic should probably go there.)

Sections:
1. Social Engineering Choices
2. Social Engineering Effects
3. Related Concepts
4. Issues for Discussion

Social Engineering Choices
The general consensus seems to be to move Civ to the SMAC model of social engineering. Within that broad statement . . .

Categories for social engineering: Government, Society, Economic Structure, Values, Religion, Regional Government

Government Types:
Despotism, Monarchy, Fascism, Totalitarianism
Republic, Democracy, Tribal, Dictatorship
Feudalism
(Note: Choice of government type restricts your choices in other areas.)

Society Types:
Police State, Open, Corporate, IngSoc

Economic Structures:
Barter, Currency, Manoralism, Banking
Mercantilism, Corporate, Labor Union, Communism

Values:
Knowledge, Power, Mores, Wealth

Regional Governments:
Federal, Confederacy, City-State
Back to Sections

Social Engineering Effects:
SE choices can have effects on the following areas:

Growth, Happiness, Economy, Gregariousness
Environment, Pride, Control, Fanaticism
Ego, Materialism, Vengeance, Curiosity
Industry, Distribution of Wealth, Corruption, Conservatism

Game Effects:
SE Effect -- Game Effect
Growth -- Rate of population growth
Happiness -- Happiness of the populace
Economy -- Tax and trade income
Gregariousness -- Maximum size of cities
Environment -- Pollution rate
Pride -- Resistance to subversion
Control -- Police
Fanaticism -- Resistance to SE change
Ego -- Modifier to foreign relations
Materialism -- Duplicate of Economy?
Vengeance -- Holding a diplomatic grudge
Curiosity -- Research rates
Conservatism -- Combination of Fanaticism and Pride?
Distribution of Wealth -- Duplicate of Happiness?
Corruption -- As in CivII
Industry -- Production rates
Back to Sections

Concepts:

• SE settings should have an effect on gameplay. For instance, a setting of Laisse-Faire Capitalism should prevent you from micromanaging your economy, while Communism would force you to do more tweaking to be efficient.
  
• National and ethnic character: Should each Civ start with inherent pluses and minuses like in SMAC? How to assign them without starting a race war?
  
• Discovery of some techs should have an immediate impact on your SE effects, i.e. plastics gives you a minus on environment.
  
• Culture Points: (Trachmyr, this was my interpretation of what you posted, but after looking back over your post I don't think it's right. Could you clarify for me please?) This system separates the discovery of a society tech from its implementation. Instead, after you discover a tech you have to spend a certain number of "culture points" to actually make the change in the social engineering window. Culture points are gained automatically as time passes, through (positive) diplomatic relations, Philosophers (which are like entertainers) and Wonders.
  
• Depending on your regional government structure, you should be able to make a few SE choices for regions as well as the entire empire. Tax/Lux/Sci rates may also be set down to the city level, but the interface must allow you to set levels in multiple cities at once.
  
• Revolutions should cause large splits in the empire. Also, if different regions have very different SE settings, this should increase the chances of a revolution. Revolutions create new civ that you are immediately at war with, but they can be reintegrated with the original civ if they surrender or ally within a given amount of time.
  
• Dynasties. Every once in a while, your government destabilizes as the line of succession is debated/argued/murdered over.
  
• Generals, like the officers of MoO2.
  
• Civ-specific units and buildings, but instead of assigning the units to a specific civ, the first civ to discover a given tech gets them, and that tech is no longer available to other civs.
  
• Preset government "templates" that set all the SE choices for you, and which you can then modify from there.
  
• Laws: Laws are like SE settings, only with less effect and not mutually exclusive. They're sort of like city ordinances from SimCity. Possible laws include mandatory military service, child labor/education, legalized drugs, etc. that all have small effects on your empire. We'd need a lot of these to get it to work.
  
• Economies should go through boom/bust cycles, the strength of which depends on your SE settings.
  

Issues for Discussion:

• Slavery is something nobody can seem to agree on . . . in or out, and if in, how?
  
• Instead of making SE choices directly, we make them by supporting certain structures or groups, which then create pluses and minuses on their own. So, instead of picking "Police State: +2Police, -1Economy" you beef up your police and military and they eventually give you +2 Police and -1 Economy.
  

Contributers: Zorloc, JT, anachron, Trachmyr, Ecce Homo, mhistbuff, the Octopus, Fuji the Great, Shining1, Freddz, Mark_Everson, Frank Moore, kmj, 23 Skidoo, Depp, Singularity, NotLikeTea, Armageddon, LordStone1, HolyWarrior, Lancer, primetime000, JamesJKirk, RINCEWIND_HAS_RETURNED, darkgrendel, Spartan187, Bell.

posted May 23, 1999 21:42                

Government/Social enginering choices should make other choices more or less difficult, but never impossible.

A despotic, capitalist, fundamentalist state should be possible, if very difficult. A democratic, communist, religious state should be possible, if very difficult.

posted May 24, 1999 12:00                

I think the Civs should have a chance of GROWING special abilities depending of HOW the Civ is governed and or WHAT government choices your people have lived with for a long time. Those choices breed traditions, not too unlike the real world. You, as a player, grow these traditions through your choices.

Two clarifying exmples:

1/ A nation which is constantly warring and/or have the power choice for a long time could get Morale bonuses after a time. Maybe production bonuses on units too. They could also get a negative modifier on something else if unlucky since their people has had a strong tradition on putting violence first.

2/ A peaceful nation could get science bonuses if lucky, and could be well liked by other peoples making it harder for other leaders to make war "on those friendly neighbours". Civil disorders could erupt easier in those nations when someone declares war on them. They could also get negative morale modifiers and so on.

Comments: The civilizations would become more individual after time with a system like this, and the changes would force a player to consider new tactics when faced with a change that affect the entire nation. New government choices could be neccessary, new tactics and so on.

posted May 24, 1999 13:35                

These factions can be played off against each other, and they can act to limit the ruler's power. The underlying theme is to make Civ reflect more of the pressures on a leader. Historically, even the most advanced or far-thinking leaders were limited by the entrenched power of other groups.

The most important factor in this would be taxes and pacification. A ruler needs to keep the masses happy, or they will revolt. To do this requires the support of the strongest factions in society. But at the same time, the ruler needs money. Money can come from the elites, which infuriates them, or from the masses, which retards growth and fosters discontent.

Once SE has set the outline of a civ, a player should have several ‘special actions'. These would be like Nerve Stapling in SMAC: they would last for various lengths, and have effects on a given faction. They would also vary with the government. Examples:

Crusade: increases military strength, reduces population pressure, but angers target (a foreign power).
Purge: reduces military strength and science, but pacifies masses thru terror.
Enclosures: angers masses, pacifies elites.
Grant Fairs: increase taxes, pacify merchants, grows cities (but thus angers nobles)
Grant city charters: enhance city growth, anger nobles
Increase Feudal Levy: increase taxes, anger nobles
Grant Serfdom: anger populace, pacify nobles
Sell Offices: increase corruption, pacify nobles
Conscription: increase military, anger masses

...you get the idea. Additionally, an important SE choice should be Individual Liberty, on a sliding scale, like a percentage. Taking some actions would decrease it, taking some would increase it. If the IL score dropped too low (or got too high), it might force a revolution. As IL increases, the ability of the government to do certain things (like raise taxes or go to war) would decrease. However, higher IL would lead to faster scientific and economic growth.

posted May 24, 1999 17:58                

Independant - As city-state, but also with nomadic populations.

Regional - This is the one state state asked about, if you have several regions it is a Confederacy.

National - As Federal, but with a less Western title.

P.S. Bell, actually that is a pretty good summary of my "Culture" system with 2 clarifications:
1) Many Culture choices are available at GAME START without need for tech discovery.
2)Almost all ancient wonders and many modern ones will ONLY provide CULTURE, though in very large amounts. The reason is that most wonders are just a tribute to the buildin civ, helping define that civ.

posted May 24, 1999 18:51                

Culture, Economics, Politics, Military System, and Religion seem to be getting mixed together here. In fact, they do get mixed together in history, but to incorporate them properly in a game system, we'd better be able to define what we mean in game terms...

posted May 25, 1999 12:59                

Never said otherwise. I'm putting everything in the summary, that was just my personal opinion on what makes a game good and what takes away from it, which means no more than anyone else's. Firaxis will make all the final decisions.

My suggestion may not be a good idea, but why not? What problems do you see?

I wasn't speaking to you in particular, but to Diodorus Sicilus about the suggestion that the game auto-builds structures for you. That seems to be taking a very critical game function and decision out of the player's hands, which I think takes some fun out of the game. Your suggestion I'm not sure about, since I didn't really get the gist of what you suggested.

posted May 25, 1999 18:25                

How about a scale, for all categories, from Top to Bottom. Top being full control, bottom being least control

Representation (from top to bottom) would be Despotism -> Monarchy -> Democracy -> Full Democracy (vote on everything)

Regions: Unitary (one level of governemnt) -> Federal (provinces/states) -> City States -> Anarchy

Economy: Planned (communism) -> Regulated -> Capitalist -> Totally Free Market

Religion: Fundamentalist -> Official state religion (including athiesm) -> Unofficial state religion (state holidays, but not enforced beliefs) -> All religions accepted, none favoured

Millitary: Drafted army -> volenteer army -> emergency army (reserve like, maybe)-> unregulated millitias

-

Each would have plusses and minuses, and room to work within each (what kind of official religion, what kind of economic regulation, etc)

posted May 26, 1999 07:37                

1. Mercenary army. Costs lot of gold, but units tend to be better. Mercenaries have got bad habit of switching sides.

2. Volunteer army. It takes 2x production to build armies, but they don't have the happiness penalty of democracies.

3. Draft army. The normal model.

posted May 26, 1999 07:44                

The reason is that it is assumed that a volonteer army will atract the kind of people who enjoy fighting, and shooting things. However, a draft army will be composed of people from all groups equally, and would be less likely to commit atrocities if ordered to do so by a general. Less perfect discipline, but more likely to do what the people like.

posted May 26, 1999 08:26                

If we look at f.x. scandinavian countries the society would be something like this:

Government type: Democracy(Multi parti unlike the common two parti systems)

Society Type: Wellfare(Free education, free medical care and economic support for the less fortunate)
Advantages: Better research/verylow crime and corruption
Disadvantages: More military unhappiness/less gold income and less benefit from trade (High taxes make it less attractive to start own company)

Economic Structure: Labor Market(Labor unions vs. corporate)

Values: Humanitarism/Ethics
Advantages: Even lower crime and corruption
Disadvantages: Any attrocity by the government will result in anarchy, automatic declaration of war on nations that commit attrocities.

Shouldnt be that hard to implement.

posted May 26, 1999 10:56                

NLT was closer to what I meant than, apparently, I was. I never intended that the gamer lose all control over City Improvements, builds, army, etc. I simply would like to see the amount of direct control related to the type of government and society. You as the government always have the option of building or encouraging the building of certain infrastructure or improvements: the trick is to include the realistic (historical) trade-offs.
A Totalitarian government type gives the gamer total control over everything built or done, but he also has to pay for everything (government is the only source of laboer, material, controls all wealth) and has to deal with lousy Growth factors (stifles initiative).
An economic system of Capitalism gives the possibility of other agenices than the government (Corporations, City Fathers, etc) doing and building things that the central government (you, da gamer) doesn't have to pay for. BUT if you really, really want a Harbor or Airport in a given city, you can provide the funds and have it built - and maybe convince the locals to pay for some of it (levies, bonds, etc)
A Fuedal society will have most of your military 'paid for' by the Barons or other 'local' government: you have less direct control, but also less cost, and no cost for upkeep until you "call them up" - at which point you discover that you haven't kept the Barons' Happiness level high enough and some of them don't come, or revolt. The social and political structure simply doesn't allow you the kind of direct control other government forms would.

BUT I thoroughly agree, that to make a playable and enjoyable game, the gamer always has to have a 'back door' - a way he can control or influence game events rather than being a helpless spectator. I just want to see more options as to how he does that, and more historical problems presented to the Gamer As Central Government.

posted May 26, 1999 13:12                

There ought to be ALOT of SE choices! One thing I think was bad with SMAC was the limited SE choices. Let there be like 5*5 or 6*6, 46656 possibilities!
And perhpas, where if you are one type of thing you may not be another in a different economy, like a free market economy could not be a despotic government, nor a democratic feudalistic, or a fanatic want knowledge.
Degrees, such as if you want a socailistic soceity, but not too much. You would choose along a sliding scale or from WEAK, NORMAL or STRONG levels.
Becuase if you just want to be kind of Knowledge focused, becuase you want to use a religion other than agnostism, atheism, deism or secularism? Or want an emphasis on Knowledge AND Wealth, or a Monotheistic soceity that allows Secular interests?
So you could be a Democratic/Socialistic/Atheist,Secular/Kowledge,Wealth soceity?
And a suggestion for a Government: Republican Aristocracy, where only the smartest CAN rule, but the normal people pick, so you get extra economy and knowledge, but less happiness.

posted May 27, 1999 15:45                

Volunteer army

The army is based loosely upon free members of society deciding to join the army. This is a full pay job, so it's costly. The quality however, isnt very good cause there is no selection, and people ( don't take the wrong way, I am serving in the army ) who choose to go to the army are mostly people how are un-fitting for any other work.
Require: Democracy.
Cost: 150% of normal unit.
Support: 150% of normal unit.
Quality: -10% to morale.
Advantages: Cause no penalty in democracy, twice is effective in reducing unrest.

Requirtment army

Not the same as a full fledge drafting, this army praise upon signing the best people into active duty to the state ( see Israel and Switz as roll models ). This army is based upon service in honor and willingly for the state, but requires good support and treatment to the soldiers.
Require: The republic.
Cost: 100% of normal cost.
Support: 125% of normal cost.
Quality: +25% to morale.
Advantge: Cause half the democratic penalty.

The peoples army

A massive drafting army, with forced labor and even kids joining in. This army is supported only by tyrants and kings, but it's easy to eracte a huge army this way.
Requires: Dictatorship.
Cost: 75% of normal cost.
Support: 50% of normal cost.
Quality: -25% to morale.
Disatvantage: cause massive unrest.

Reserve army

Based only for emergencies, the reserve army
is extreamly easy to maintian. The troops morale is always high, as they fight for their home-land.
Requires: The right to bear arms.
Cost: 200% of normal cost.
Support: 10% of normal cost:
Quality: +10% of morale.
Special: units may only leave home city in case of war, else they are always fortfied.

Mercenry army

The mercenry army is based upon hired thugs and trained units to battle it out with the enemy.
Requires: Trade.
Cost: May only "rush-bay", not make any units. Cost 75% of normal "rush-bay".
Support: 200% of normal cost.
Quality: +50% to morlae.
Advantage: Units are always in veteran status.

posted June 02, 1999 14:44                

-=B U M P=-

posted June 02, 1999 16:41                

Volunteers ( High-pay, high-quality army, and very small. Good happines. Allows democracy to send more units away from home.)

Selective drafts (low-pay, good-quality, medium army. Can cause revolts ).

Mass army ( a poor army, both in cost and in quality, but huge in size. Cause lots of unrest)"

Umm, the happiness is already taken care of in democracy. I conceive of riflemen sitting in a city as being reserve/National Guard units, fighting only when attacked. You can have a Swiss-style army, large relative to the population, but home based--and no unhappiness. If you want to have a large army in a democracy, but not home-based, then you have happiness issues.

I like the idea of volunteer vs. draft armies, with the former being more expensive in some way, but causing less unhappiness when outside of a city or fortress. Whether they should cost more shields or $$ upkeep--well, it's got to be one or the other. More $$ is more realistic. Volunteer units can only be certain, non-specialist units--cavalry and armor and riflemen, but not alpines or paratroopers.

posted June 02, 1999 17:39                

Here are a few of my ideas on government and other social things:

Governments: I believe that a good list of governments would be as such:

Tribal
City-State
Monarchy
Feudalism
Republic
Democracy
Communism
Theocracy
Dictatorship
Facism

In the beginning of the game you would get the choice to start off as either a Tribal, or City State government. Each of these governments would have seperate advantages and disadvantages which would help you in the game. Also, depending on the one you choose, the tech tree might be some what differant, allowing you not to access certian technologies.

A tribal government would have eithre no, or very very light, boundries, but might have a food bonus, as well as less discord, and such.

City State would have more dicord and more corruption(trade is difficult between differant cities like that), however would make more money and have better science

Feudalism would have a cut science rate, less happiness, but less corruption, and they could produce the Feudalism only unit: Knights

Theocracy and Fundementalism's affects would depend on how big of a part of the game religion will make up. if it goes along msot of the segestions around here, they would procude more money and production, could only supprot one religion ,and would percute all others, have strained relatiosn with nations of other religions, and such

Almost every government would have government only units such as Fascist stormtroopers and the like. Theocracies would have missionaries which would spread the choice religion faster than it would under normal circumstances.

Now for the idea of ethniticity. Let me say that I agree with the ideas as long as it does not get to complexe. If Fixar listens to our ideas, that can be the only real threat to the game, that it will become far to complexe. But here is my general idea for it

When a city is taken it would suffer from a period of unrest, and reduced efficency. This would also stop the type of game play where one completely finaces a war agaisnt the enemy, with cities taken from the enemy.

After this time runs out they would become a normal city, with normal production and such. However, they would not forget which civilization they came from. If you took the city from the Celts, the people would not forget that they are Celtic, for a very very long time. It might take hundres of turns for them to be complete assimulated, depending on the period the game is in. This population might try to rebell and rejoin the other civilization if it still exists, begging them to take them back. Or, if the civilization is destroyed, they may attept to rebell and recreate their old nation.

Now there would be ways to combat this, of course. For instance, you could flood the city with your own settlers until your population over weighs their population, lessening the chance. Or you could try to force the ethnic group to split up and deport them to differant cities, once again lessening their power. this would also speed up the tiem of assimulation.

Now the question of slavery comes up. I actually find it to be a good part of CTP, and enjoy it. I know it's a controvercial topic, but it is a realistic factor in the game, and if doen right it can help a great deal. I think there should be a few ways to gain slaves in the game.

First of all, in the ancient phase, when you defeat an enemy unit there shoudl be an off chance that you capture a few as slaves, and send them to a city. Also you shoudl be able to have a slaver unit which acts in much the same way as the CTP unit. Finally, when you capture an enemy civilization you could choose to convert part of the cities population into slaves, and disperce them throughout the Empire, or you could enslave a nationalist group inside your out boundries, another reason for having the computer rembre the ethnics of the cities.

posted June 03, 1999 01:38                

For instance, the Social Engineering setting 'Knowledge' increases the amount of research generated in ALL cities. Building a library in any one city will add say +5 to that city's knowledge level (with each level being a jump of say 10% on basic output).

Each city, therefore, has its own social engineering readout.

The same for industry, and Economy (cash only). Other improvements can affect morale, happiness, etc.

The only suggestion I can add is that social engineering effects INCREASE the output of a city, rather than diminishing the required ammount of minerals or food (which lead to some phenomenally tacky cheats in SMAC).

I think this is definitely the best way to handle the whole social engineering setup, while making base management more intuitive.

posted June 04, 1999 08:39                

Absolutist: There is one person in top of state, and he has absolute power.
Feudalism: There is one power in top, but he divides some of his power to be used by nobles.
Democratic: Leader is elected by people, and there are other institutions to counter his power.
Totalitarian: There is one party leading the nation, usually with strong ruler. Modern version of Absolutism.
Virtual: There is no leader, as population decides every matter by common vote. Futuristic system.

Economics:

Mercantile: Trade is run by guilds and families. Normal model.
Slaveocratic: Special version of mercantilism, which allows the use of slavery.
Capitalistic: Trade is run by companies and corporations.
Communistic: Trade is run by goverment.
Global: Trade is run by corporations, but regulated by common worldwide network of nations. Futuristic system.

posted June 05, 1999 05:32                

governments are the body of people and institutions that make and enforce laws for a society

ok i'm going to define a democracy in terms of my government book

all democracies have these properties

popular sovereignty: the ultimate power to make decisions is vested in all the people and not some or just one of them

political equality: each citizen has the same opportunity as every other citizen to participate in the decision making process

popular consultation: government officials seek out which public policies the people want and then they put those policies into effect even if they don't agree with them

so if you are a democracy you will have those properties

posted June 05, 1999 05:50                

Protections of Belief and Expression

Religious worship
Speech
Press
personal privacy
preservation of subcultures

Protections of Action

Assembly
Petition
Voting & Secret Ballot
Prohibition of slavery
practice of choosen profession
free movement within out of nation
property rights
collective bargaining
strikes

Protection of People Accused of Crimes

No bills of attainder
No ex post facto laws
Not guilty by association
No unreasonable searches and seizures
No trial with indictment
No double jeopardy
No forced confessions
No excessive bail or fines
No cruel or unusual punishment
No extradition for polictical crimes
No capital punishmeant
No imprisonment for debt
Due process of law
Equal protection under law
Guarantee of Writ of habeas corpus
Speedy public trial
Trial by impartial jury
Ability to confront hostile witnesses
Subpoena power for defendant
Assistance of counsel

Protection of Property

Compensation for property taken by government
Integrity of contracts
Respect for Intellectual property rights

Social Protection

posted June 05, 1999 06:12                

instead of having one government choice or one economic choice or one values choice maybe each area should have sliders and yes/no boxes in it. let me elaborate

ok under governments you have some yes no catorgories like
does your nation have a parliment(congress)? if your nation does have a parilment then the congress can make laws and this makes the people hppier but it decreases the personal power your leader has

also there would be slider bars...
like say you wanted your society to have a high degree of property rights, there would be a slider for this.

posted June 05, 1999 10:30                

Why? Because sliders lead to tweaking. If you have a number of yes/no toggles, you have certain number of possibilities. Quite high, but reasonable.

Now, if we have a lot of sligers, suppose there are 100 choices per slider (1%, 2%, 3%, etc) Now the number of possible choices shoots through the roof.

posted June 05, 1999 16:24             

Legalize Birth Control: +1 Happy -1 Growth, can be done after discovery of contraception

Legalize Drugs: +2 Happy, -1 research, -1 morale, can be done after discovery of medicine.

Get tough on Crime: +1 Police, would cost a certain amount of gold per turn. Can be done after some later game technology, would be similar to USA crackdown on crime after Republican Revolution.

Institute Welfare: -1 economy, +1 happiness.

Nationalize health care: -1 Economy, +1 happiness.

Force some citizens to be expiremented on for scientific tesets: -1 Happiness, +1 research

Ban Child Labor: -1 Industry, +1 Research

Freedom of Information: -1 Probe, +1 Research

Ethnic Cleansing: An ethnicity in your empire is killed or flees to other civ, +1 happy, major atrocity.

Free University: +1 research, would cost certain amount of gold.

Place envirometnal saveguards: +1 planet, -1 economy.

posted June 06, 1999 11:36                

1. Civlian milita

Requires: Default selection.
Cost: 25%.
Support: 100%.
Status: Green, twice the time to upgrade level, -20% morale.
Social: 1 un-happy citizen.
Special:
* only build infantry units.
* can only build at war.
* units are distamtled at peace.
* can't reduce un-rest.

2. Reserve army
Requires: Citizen watch.
Cost: 150%.
Support: 25%.
Status: Normal, +10% morale.
Social: 1 less unhappy citizen.
Special:
* Units are always fortified.
* May only move units when in war.

3. Volunteer army
Requires: Democracy
Cost: 125%
Support: 150%
Status: Normal, -10% morale.
Social: 1 happy citizen.
Special:
* Cause no unrest in democracy.
* Twice effctive in reducing un-rest.

4. Reqruietment army
Requires: The republic.
cost: 100%.
Support: 125%
Status: Normal, +20% morale.
Social: 1 unhappy citizen.
Special:
* Cause half unrest in democracy.
* +50% effective in reducing un-rest.

5. Mercenry army
requires: Trace.
Cost: 200%
Support: 175%.
Status: Veteran, +30% morale.
Social: normal.
Special:
* Pay no un-keep when not at wars.
* Can't reduce un-rest.
* Lose control on units when city revolts.

6. The people army
Requires: Dictatorship.
Cost: 75%.
Support: 50%.
Status: Normal, -30% morale.
Social: 2 unhappy citizens.
Special:
* Cause twice un-rest in democracy.

posted June 06, 1999 22:11                

In China, soldiers of the government army quit and joined the People's Liberation Army in droves, because they believed it represented their beliefs, and because it was generally more polite. Later on, in peacetime when it was a tool of the government, the reputation of the army went down.

posted June 07, 1999 06:58                

Introduction: Im an student of economics and I think, as the friends in this topic, that there are some things that must be changed, i've taken a day to design my idea, i'll try to be clear in my explanation, I wish the guy that initiate to read this do it till the end. (excuse me for my bad english)

POPULATION:First of all, cities must look in a real size (more or less) proportionally to its population maybe ocupying 2 or 3 tiles (hexagonal and smaller) expanding its economical influence as well.

In my games i always tryed to reach the United States population (260M) or Brazilian (180M), in my dreams i tried the China's or Indian's, but its impossible. Even the Civ world can't ever reach the real world population. That's because a country have not 40 or 70 cities, they have a thousand!. So I propose that when you create a city and your economy grows, other towns should born proportionally, aroun the cities and near the roads. But you don't manage them! they don't even count on the economy, they should be just seen on the map and count for the "population census". Those towns should grow but will remain always small. Idea: between two farm tiles a town can be seen.

A BIG MISTAKE: In civilization you can't have big metropolis, bigger metropolis are less productive, that's an error! They maybe forgot that was in the "industrial revolution" that the cities suffered a population boom. So, I think that cities must grow independent of is food production, so food production should be automaticly distributed between cities (not by micromanaged caravans but automaticly, or else can be entablished a food distribution like in MOO where you construct freighter fleets that make the work automatily, if there's freighters scarcity there's food scarcity in the cities that don't produce enough)
It means that city growth will not take place when the food deposits are full(?) but by birth and immigration.

NEW ECONOMY/FOOD&PRODUCTION:

OBJETIVES: -Not too see bigger cities less productives.
-real effects: >population = >production

food production--> automaticly distributes (if tecnology avaiable)
surplus---> 1)consumed for > birth rates
2)stored for future charestty

raw materials (not shields): mines and normal tiles give "raw materials", the "workforce" convert them on production.

raw materials---> no stored--> distributed between the cities (if tecnology avaiable)

With ADVANCED NAVIGATION "frigates"---> investiments on "virtual" transporters, food&raw materials are automaticly distributed between the sea and rivers.

With INDUSTRIALIZATION-->food&raw materials
are virtually distributed between cities connected by railroads.

Workforce produce with raw materials:
factories=+30% workforce efficiency.

EFFECTS:
1)At the early beggining: more balanced because production=population
population=by birth (not by food)
eliminates the benefit (or not) of random tiles quality at the beggining.
2)Demographic real effects: demografic boom in industrialism, production boom in industrailized cities.
3) can generate bigger metropolis with more production (not with less)

ADDITIONAL IDEAS:
IMMIGRATION: it would be an interesting detail to include immigration between the cities inside an empire, a city with a factry near another without one atracts immigration.

Before the industrial revolution--> immigration was caused by the food scarsity
After the industria revolution---> was caused for the searching of a better lifestyle.

Also University cause immigration.

Also: normal emmigration would not be seen in the map but there should be a window where we can see the emmigration flow between cities. When a city is attacked and taken, massive emmigration must ocurr (this time must be seen in the map), slowing down the attacking force, those people can also be hunted by genocidals.

FAMILY PLANNING: smaller birth rates at will, when food productions in the world decrease.

INTERNATIONAL COMMERCE: a sistem like in IMPRERIALISM where you can exchange food for production, or food for money etc. Every turn you can put in a "board" your needs and your offers.

posted June 08, 1999 13:18                

Economic stuff:
Economic Value (like the Econ in SMAC)
Taxes
Welfare
Competition

And Other Value stuff:
Base Value system (like Value in SMAC)
Technology
Science
Religion
Sexuality
Enviroment

*Random shifts in public opinoin, requiring you to change your SE choices or face the wrath of riots.

posted June 08, 1999 13:19                

Economic stuff:
Economic Value (like the Econ in SMAC)
Taxes
Welfare
Competition

And Other Value stuff:
Base Value system (like Value in SMAC)
Technology
Science
Religion
Sexuality
Enviroment

*Random shifts in public opinoin, requiring you to change your SE choices or face the wrath of riots.

posted June 08, 1999 13:19                

Economic stuff:
Economic Value (like the Econ in SMAC)
Taxes
Welfare
Competition

And Other Value stuff:
Base Value system (like Value in SMAC)
Technology
Science
Religion
Sexuality
Enviroment

*Random shifts in public opinoin, requiring you to change your SE choices or face the wrath of riots.

posted June 08, 1999 13:41                

This is closely related to Galen's ideas, concerning gradual change.

Suppose I'm in a government system that has +3 morale (assuming it's going to be like SMAC) and I want to switch to another form with -1 morale.

posted June 09, 1999 12:10                

I don't have time to do the summary right now, but this thread is closed, and the new one will be SE/G 2.0. If you've been following Octo's numbering scheme, you know this mean that the the next summary (at the beginning of the 2.0 thread) will be the one to go in the first list shipped to Brian Reynolds. Keep sending suggestions though, because even though they won't get in the first letter, there will be more . . .