posted May 19, 1999 10:16                

I see the purpose of this thread as an opportunity to review all the cheats that we currently know. Let's make sure that any new version of Civ is designed by people who know HOW we are currently abusing their games so they can design some protections in. Granted, any new game will have it's problems, and people will find ways to abuse the rules. But, by pointing out some of the things they have failed to correct in the past, maybe they will be more careful in the future. Now, we know that this will be a whole new game, and many of the features or ways of doing things will hopefully be changed. So, many of these may not even matter in the new game. But again, lets tell them how the current rules are being abused. Our insights can only help when they are figuring out how to do things right.
So let's help them to design a game that has far less loop holes to begin with.

Here is a summary of what has been discussed so far:

PEAKING AT THE MAP
In CIV MP, you can load a net game as a regular game and use the scenario editor to bypass any password and view the entire map.
This can be done during a game if you have two computers, or between sessions
POTENTIAL SOLUTION
Just do what they do with the cheat menu.
If there is any civ passworded, it will not allow you to use the cheat menu. This shouldn't hamper scenario designers, because they wouldn't use any passwords while designing a scenario.

INFINITE MOVEMENT TRICK
In MP, if you give a unit to somebody after you move it, and he gives it back, it can move again. This can be repeated so any unit can move as much as you would like.
SOLUTION
Make is so a unit can only move once in any given year/turn

AIRBASES
Airbases provide additional shields and food when built within a city radius. They are also instant rails. Plus, they can be put in a line to stop enemy air units and nukes from getting through.
SOLUTION
Make sure they don't provide any extra's. Make people build roads/rails in the same square if they want the movement bonus.
Allow enemy units to fly over airbases - put an option on the comand menu that allows for landing or attack.

COVERING GROUND UNITS WITH BOMBERS
This makes the stack impervious to ground attack since ground units can't strike the bomber.
SOLUTION
There have many solutions proposed for this one, and it really depends on what combat system will be used in the new game. We just want them to be aware of this, so they don't make the same mistake again.

HOME CARAVAN TRICK
You can reassign a caravan to any home city by using the city menu instead of the command menu. It says in the rules you can't do this.
SOLUTION
In MP mode, this has been fixed. Vs the AI, you can still do it. (unless they fixed that in the latest patch) Again, who knows how trade will work in the new game. The point here is that if you say something can't be done in the rules, check out all menues that allow for such an action to make sure you have caught them all.

SHIP CHAINING
By using multiple ships, you can move a unit around the world in one turn. (that's realistic)
SOLUTION
One solution was to disallow any transfer of a unit from ship to ship. This might not be the best solution because there are legitimate reasons beyond chip chaining to do this. Again, they should be aware that this type of cheat has been available to us in the past and should be checked in the new game.

THE FOOD CARAVAN TRICK
This is when you can send multiple food caravans from the same city to the same city, and only still have one food trade route estabished. (only -1 per turn, but the target city gets a full food bin or new pop for every caravan arriving)
SOLUTION
Again, who knows how trade will work in the new game. But again, if something like caravans are used, they should check out what happens when multiple caravans are sent from the same location to the same location.

RUSH BUYING UNITS IN A STEP PROCESS TO SAVE MONEY
I don't see this as a cheat. But since it doesn't work that way for city improvements (a correction made from civI to civII) some claim that it is.
SOLUTION
Again, who knows... just be consistant, or point out that the option is available.

That covers what was discussed already in the other thread. Let's hear some more. I need your help.

We ask that if this is the first time you post to the thread, please start you post with that fact.
We are keeping a list of all those that contribute to our threads, and that would make life easier on us.
The Following People have already posted suggestions:
Ecce Homo
EnochF
Carolus Rex
Theben

posted May 19, 1999 12:36                

This needs to be eliminated. Since a city works (size + 1) squares the most efficient pattern is to keep your cities small, build settlers and military units. It is quite easy to conquer the world very quickly, even in MP.

posted May 19, 1999 15:56                

I mention this because the concept of wonders which benefit many civs is becoming more popular on my thread, including an Internet wonder which provides a Great Library effect for every civilization with the Computers advance.

posted May 19, 1999 16:46                

1) Requires two ports on different continents which are less than one turn's movement apart for a transport. Move a unit into city A (which has a transport waiting). Sleep the unit. Move the transport to city B; the unit wakes up and has unexpended movement points available. Bug or feature? Note that this gives near-infinite movement with railroads.

2) A closely related trick: move a unit into a city, expending *all* of its movement points. Go to the city display, sleep the unit. Now you can move it some more with a ship.

Intelligence issues:

3) You can always see barbies moving through territory you've explored. If they are attacked by a foreign unit, that unit appears while it's attacking, although you normally wouldn't be able to see it.

4) When your unit is adjacent to an enemy unit and you try to move to a new square that is also adjacent to an (unseen) enemy unit, the unseen unit becomes visible.

posted May 20, 1999 01:47                

Does the Repeated Commodity Trade strategy strike you as something that should be eliminated? Is it covered by the Anti-Homing suggestion?

How about fortifying a city unit who just fought? You can't do it outside the city. (Maybe this can be rationalized because it is inside the city.)

posted May 20, 1999 05:01                

"Charging" the unit by letting it perform some task, interrupt the process, move the unit elsewhere and continue the same task there. All the work done in the first square carries over to the second.

Bug or feature?

posted May 20, 1999 11:55                

I'll test it and get back to you.

Ming, you and Xin Yu seem to be good friends. Does he know about this (Civ3)? He really is an expert on these things (and on the game as a whole) and can contribute a lot. Maybe you can talk to him in private if he's too busy to hang around?

posted May 21, 1999 09:58                

As for the missiles, someone(I think it was don Don) suggested moving missiles like land units, then using the 'paradrop' key to have it 'drop' on a seen enemy target. This eliminates missiles that scout, and can fly over territory and then land like airplanes. As you said, though, this should be in the units thread.

Any city that has built a wonder may be located using the 'find city' command; you'll get an exact location but no other info.

posted May 22, 1999 04:07                

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CIV3 DEVELOPMENT LIST COORDINATOR

posted May 22, 1999 22:27                

Somebody thinks using diplo/spy or caravan/freight to pass zone of control is cheating.

One civ investigated a city then all civs can see the inside is a bug. If civ1 uses a spy to investigate a city then occupies it, all civs can check the city and know which improvements are not destroyed.

Clicking on the map where you haven't explored, look at the number after the coordinates tells you if the place is ocean or land is a bug.

Moving via north/south poles to another continent is unrealistic.

In MP, not only giving units to each other can provide more movement points, but also giving cities to each other can provide double productivity--the cities generate shield/revenue/food for both of the civs.

Giving units to each other may end up assigning the home city of a ship to an inland city, totally impossible in single player games. Is it a bug?

That's all I can come up now. MWHC may have more ideas.

Greetings to Ming.

posted May 23, 1999 06:04                

I started a new game and mined some hills. Five turns later I interrupted the process, moved the settler to another spot and continued there. It only needed the remaining five turns.

Same thing with irrigation and fortressbuilding, the number of turns left to the completion of a task in one square was all the unit needed elsewhere.

I also checked if the square itself was "charged". If an "uncharged" settler started mining some hills that already had been mined a few turns by another settler, it took the normal number of turns.

Now, I don't have a problem with this. The benefits of "turbo mining/irrigation" appear to be small. "Instant fortress" is a very useful tactic, however, but IMHO it's not something that unbalances the game.

Any thoughts?

posted May 23, 1999 11:58                

These should not be a unit in the ordinary sense. I mean, you can send out a cruise missle and check what targets you can find and then hit them.

I say when you activate a cruise missle you point at what square you wanna hit and then off it goes, whatever is occupying that square it hits.

posted May 24, 1999 08:40                

(and Txurce, what cheat is that? heh heh heh)

posted May 25, 1999 08:15                

UNINTENDED POSSIBILITIES TO EXPLOIT THE PECULARITIES OF AI GAMEPLAY

I am not entirely sure whether this falls under the heading "cheats". I think it's very close, though: regular cheats are exploitations of loopholes in the programming of the game per se, whereas I mean exploitations of the way the programmers let the AI play the game (also, the AI thread is full of programmers' talk which sounds like Japanese for a computer-science dummy like me).

An expample:

TRIBUTE

The AI gives out money and sciences like candy on halloween. It should not be that way. Consequently, smart players almost always head for an easy win by relying on a tribute-based economy.
Solution: Significantly reduce AI's willingness to pay tribute.

posted May 25, 1999 08:53                

Who knows where your suggestion should be placed. I too have tried to make it through the AI discussion, and some of it is a tad over my head...

posted May 25, 1999 11:42                

As you said, I don't know if this belongs here but here's more of that weird AI behaviour in need of attention.

I've already posted the same things in the thread "One Vote for STRONG AI", but it's in the "Civ3-General/Suggestions" forum and I'm not sure if it has been picked up anywhere.

Here are some of the things that added together are so devastating to the AI:s war effort and the game's difficulty level in general:

A) Military issues

i) Uncoordinated attacks.

Don't let the AI attack until it has a minimum number of units ready. One at a time is way too easy to defend against.

ii) Kamikaze attacks.

Similar to i), but not identical. Destroyer after destroyer attacking the same city with a coastal fortress, catapult after catapult rolling up to the same fortress with my lethal units in it etc. Try another target or use appropriate units: if "city walls" then "howitzers" or if "coastal fortress" then "marines" (not sure about that last one, just an example).

B) "Miscellaneous" non-military malfunctions

i) The "350 shield settler" (rah's words).

If given the choice I'll rather have an AI continuing building wonders I've just finished instead of an AI switching to something else (i.e. units or improvements). Maybe some shields are wasted if a new wonder tech is far away, but it will make it more difficult to get wonders.

ii) The tribute thing brought up by rainer.

Definitely a too powerful tool, once it takes off it's game over.

Of course, there is plenty more. Feel free to add to the list (unless Ming protests)

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited May 25, 1999).]

posted May 25, 1999 14:44                

In other words, I agree.

posted May 25, 1999 19:31                

Can you please send me your e-mail address? I'm sending my comments to Thread Masters via e-mails these days since it is much easier to do it that way now. I won't share your address with the forum, of course. Thanks.

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CIV3 DEVELOPMENT LIST COORDINATOR

posted May 26, 1999 11:49                

Re: cheat menu

From the cheat menu, I would like to be able to adjust game mechanics like:

shields required for units or wonders
trade/shields/food produced by specials
beakers required for advances
tax rates for govts
movement allowances for road/rail

posted May 26, 1999 21:13             

What about no movement points for missiles (allow them to be transported in ships), and have them attack like paratroopers, dropping onto any unit or city within range?

Just my 0.02...

posted May 27, 1999 17:18                

Trading cheat...the commodity slam: sending caravans from a very small low trade city to an opponents largest trade city to sabotage their three trade routes. I can't remember if this only works against the AI or really if it works at all, but if so it should not be incorporated into CivIII.

posted May 28, 1999 13:43                

Some of them really gets to me, though. The "instant unit" brought up by Bird is one. Others are the unsinkable trireme, AI omniscience and it's unlimited supply of cruise missiles.

But where to draw the line between cheats that increase the difficulty level without reducing the fun of the game and those that do? They are all unfair in some way, but I'll rather have a more challenging game (i.e. with AI cheats) than an easy one (without AI cheats).

I never played the original Civ, but I read somewhere that the AI civs didn't actually build the wonders themselves. They were simply given to them at random. Must have been, well, "frustrating"

posted May 30, 1999 15:04                

The trading of caravans to set up instant trade routes... We call this one instant teleportation.... Suggestions folks.

The ability to watch people change governments by using the chat screen and watching peoples titles change..

Using the location of your units to find other cities... (go into the city menu, click on a unit, and it will tell you the nearest city, even if you haven't found it)

The old knowing if a dark square is ocean touching land by looking at the square designation...

posted May 30, 1999 22:22                

A. I disagree that the ship chain strategy is actually a cheat.

1. First of all, doing it over distance, especially with triremes, represents a huge investment of resources in shipping. One is hardly getting this benefit cheaply.

2. The ability to move by boat around the world in 1 turn, when that 1 turn represents 10 to 50 years, is hardly unrealistic.

3. If one sees movement in this game as one ground unit moving only 1 to 6 squares
a turn before railroad, or as a naval unit carrying its cargo only 3 to 6 squares in one turn, then one is baffled by such a small movement over 10 to 50 years. relative movement points can't be seen as actual, but rather are a representation of logistical problems of movement experienced in reality, wich on land can be alleviated by roads, and later by rail roads, and on the sea by the expenditure of vast resources on naval transport. That one is able to move units "railroad style" much earlier by sea than by land in Civ2 is actually reflected in reality. European powers during the age of discovery were so interrested in finding various sea routes to India and China, and fought so hard for dominance of these routes largely, if not entirely, because It was logistically far easier, and often faster, to transport large ammounts of goods by sea than it was by land.

B. I disagree that the repeat commodities trade strategy is a cheat.

1. It is hardly unrealistic that some cities will go on supplying or demanding the same commodity after having been involved in a trade transaction, while other cities will not. Different cities will vary in the size of their supply or demand, and one caravan may not be enough to exaust or fill it. This has to be represented somehow.

2. This is not an unbalancing factor in MP, as:

a. unlike other cheats other civs have definite and reasonable methods of stopping this, or at least limiting it, via blocade. This is not true of the caravan gift strategy, which is unstoppable via blocade. Also, another human civ can take advantage of the continued demand for a good by sending his or her own caravan.

b. Even against the AI this strategy is not without risk, as first of all, the AI may decide to kill your caravan layden ship at any time without warning, and secondly because the demanding city may still lose the demand in favor of another commodity, even after you have already built five now far less valuable caravans to send there. Or the AI may decide to revolt or to stick all workers on trees and unroaded plains for a few turns to build something faster, making the trade routes less valuable.

c. In either case making the most of an RTC situation still does require the expenditure of time and resources for caravan building and transport, without complete certainty of a good payoff.

posted June 02, 1999 04:10             

On my version of Civ II I can't chain ships for some reason (somewhat to my regret - I used to place ships in Civ I between close continents and thought of the ships as ferries - is this a cheat, I thought not????).

I would like to offer three cheats, two of which I would put in the category of programming glitches, one probably belongs in the AI thread:

. If you double click on a dark part of the map the screen describing terrain will come up (saves on those ill fated trireme expeditions).

. For some reason the aircraft carrier in my version of civ II will carry 8 planes and as many cruise and nuclear missiles I want to put on it. I don't get much advantage from this, and perhaps it should be possible, but was it supposed to be like that? Same with submarines.

. The Pearl Harbour strategy: I often win the game by building a massive fleet and cruising it right up to the capitals of rivals (i.e. just before their spaceship lands). Nine times out of ten the civ does nothing as I'm deploying and, even if it does, you can buy them off. Its like the entire U.S. navy rocks up to say China and the Chinese just look on passively until the nukes start dropping. I mean, I've deployed my ground forces (i.e. invaded) and nothing pre-emptive happens - in some cases its like the AI sees your force as its own troops. You can even provoke the target civ once you've deployed (in the turn you attack) and save your "spotless" reputation. I enjoy doing it but its not right. Perhaps the sea should also have "borders"....

But the biggest cheat of all for me is the ability to replay a turn by auto-saving and re-loading it if things don't turn out as you wish. I don't know if I'd be happy if that option was removed, probably can't be anyway.

P.S.

oh yes, one more: disbanding military units in a city building a wonder. Buggered if I know how disbanding 20 mech inf helps build the UN but it certainly does in the game!

posted June 02, 1999 09:01                

(Please go to the general forum and post in the thread "Handles, handles, handles". I'm curious )

IMHO, ability to save each turn is useful for experimenting, trying different strategies under the same initial conditions or for testing things.

I don't have a problem with the "risk" of reloading. It's up to your own ethics if you cheat or not. I mean, how can I be satisfied with a personal "record" if I know I reloaded all the times something went wrong?

posted June 02, 1999 09:47                

From the beginning, a game under normal conditions (no modpacks, no customized maps, no special rules) is declared a pure game. When you save a pure game, you automatically exit the program, and you can only load it once - then it becomes demoted to a "regular" game. Pure game scores will be highlighted in the Hall of Fame.