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Topic:   Character/Dynasty Model IV Format for Better Printing
Lord God Jinnai
Prince
Arnold, Mo 63010
Sep 1999
posted July 23, 2000 18:37   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord God JinnaiClick Here to Email Lord God Jinnai  send a private message to Lord God JinnaiSend a Message to UIN: 57262757 Visit Lord God Jinnai's Homepage!
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Still I don't like that idea. If there is a better one I'll take it. Also even if i do end up having to use it, i still intend on using personailties.

Also I have a slightly updated version of this model, not enough to post it right now. If u want it ask.

Also any model leaders who can send me what type of characters you want for your models (FE the Tech will have Scientists and Inventors and maybe one other) and how you want them to interact with your model(s). I may also if i deem ness find ways of having them interact with other models.

"I had a dream too. Only it wasn't nice...I dreamt I was a moron." Squall -Final Fantasy 8

Richard Bruns
Prince
NC, USA
Nov 1999
posted July 25, 2000 20:47   Click Here to See the Profile for Richard BrunsClick Here to Email Richard Bruns  send a private message to Richard Bruns
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I think it is acceptable and desirable for good characters to "cheat" by tweaking the game figures. The player, like historical rulers, is in charge of general strategy. In the overall strategy and direction of the civ, the human will almost always be more intellegent than the computers, so the advisors won't be much help for those matters.

The characters, like historical assistants, are involved in the detailed minutaie of life that are represented by the game figures. A good general should be able to "beat the odds" and produce upset victories. A good economic manager should be able to create "production miracles" that result in higher effeciency. This kind of tactical or managerial talent is best represented by direct changes in the numbers.

The players, like historical rulers, do not need to know exactly how such things are done and the computer does not need to model them extensively. I think that the players will accept that some assistants just do a better job than others, and that the results of their work are expressed in the game numbers. This is not really cheating; it is a simple way of quantifying talent.

Also, I think it is bad form to give the player poor advice in any context. That kind of thing is very annoying and would make players mad at the game.

Richard Bruns
Prince
NC, USA
Nov 1999
posted July 25, 2000 21:25   Click Here to See the Profile for Richard BrunsClick Here to Email Richard Bruns  send a private message to Richard Bruns
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LGJ: I'll let you create the technology model characters because you know both models. The Scientist and Inventor should be enough for now. Just make sure that they are not mindless research machines. Some of them, like Einstein, should have a set of beliefs and try to influence what you research.

By the way, are you working on integrating characters with the social model? The two models should work together very closely IMO. For example, a character would have some of the attributes of the social class it came from.

axi
Prince
Athens Greece
Sep 1999
posted July 26, 2000 07:01   Click Here to See the Profile for axiClick Here to Email axi  send a private message to axiSend a Message to UIN: 54413148 Visit axi's Homepage!
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I am too for character attributes affecting the game. But the affected variables had better not be "hard" (f.e. production, money, attack strength, etc) but "soft" (f.e. efficiency variables, unhappiness, morale, etc). I thing it wouldn't be bad if Research Points (or anything alike from other models) were given free, but out of the control of the player. Characters could also have drawbacks combined with their advantages (f.e. an interoir minister loved by one class but hated by another), so the player would have to choose what suits him best.
Lord God Jinnai
Prince
Arnold, Mo 63010
Sep 1999
posted July 26, 2000 08:42   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord God JinnaiClick Here to Email Lord God Jinnai  send a private message to Lord God JinnaiSend a Message to UIN: 57262757 Visit Lord God Jinnai's Homepage!
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quote:


I am too for character attributes affecting the game. But the affected variables had better not be "hard" (f.e. production, money, attack strength, etc) but "soft" (f.e. efficiency variables, unhappiness, morale, etc). I thing it wouldn't be bad if Research Points (or anything alike from other models) were given free, but out of the control of the player

Ok....i see. that's what i was thinking also....i can live with that.
quote:


By the way, are you working on integrating characters with the social model? The two models should work together very closely IMO. For example, a character would have some of the attributes of the social class it came from.

I am trying to do so, but i need some ways of figuring out how personailities would be done. That's the sticking point right now, for that atleast.

Richard Bruns
Prince
NC, USA
Nov 1999
posted July 26, 2000 22:22   Click Here to See the Profile for Richard BrunsClick Here to Email Richard Bruns  send a private message to Richard Bruns
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axi: I don't understand your point of view about variable changes. It seems to me that the "hard" variables are simply the results of calculations that use the "soft" variables. If a character improved the efficiency of a production process from 40% to 60%, then that character is multiplying the production output by 1.5. You seem to say that the change in efficiancy is acceptible but that the change in production is not. Mathematically thay would be the same thing. Could you give a specific example of a variable change you would oppose?
Mark_Everson
Clash of Civilizations
Project Lead

Canton, MI, USA
b.02-15-99
posted August 10, 2000 21:47   Click Here to See the Profile for Mark_EversonClick Here to Email Mark_Everson  send a private message to Mark_EversonSend a Message to UIN: 30578681 Visit Mark_Everson's Homepage!
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Economics model character usage -- first draft

Merchants -- able to transport x% more cargo, leading to higher profits
Bankers -- be able to lend more of their capital than usual, reduce economic cycle strength in their civ
Industrialists -- (I guess you had this down as guild leader/CEO) -- increased industrial production, possible problems from monopolies?
Economic Planner -- able to favorably influenced the economy in lots of little ways, would provide small production bonuses everywhere, generally resulting in better economic growth. Obviously if the economic planner were used at the whole-civ level, the effects would be relatively modest but broadly felt.

I'm sure I'm missing some things, but I think you get the drift. Whatever the realm of competence of the character, there should be an appropriate bonus. Once we get further along we can gauge the relative importance of all the different areas, and adjust the sizes of the bonuses appropriately so that a great character in each area is roughly of the same value.

Lord God Jinnai
Prince
Arnold, Mo 63010
Sep 1999
posted August 11, 2000 01:51   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord God JinnaiClick Here to Email Lord God Jinnai  send a private message to Lord God JinnaiSend a Message to UIN: 57262757 Visit Lord God Jinnai's Homepage!
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Alright mark. That's exactly what i want. Also if you can tell me whether or not there can be specialist later on in the game...

I'll give an example from the tech model:

Scientists: Generally increase rp production all around by X percent.
(Specialist Scientist) Geologist: increases rp production in certain fields relating to geology. Does so more than a general scientist

Note that if he were assigned somehow to an area not of his expertise, the result would be slightly less than a scientist in general, but still an increase.

Also there can be negative modifeiers for really bad characters, remember this when thinking about how you want them to modify things.

Mark_Everson
Clash of Civilizations
Project Lead

Canton, MI, USA
b.02-15-99
posted August 15, 2000 22:31   Click Here to See the Profile for Mark_EversonClick Here to Email Mark_Everson  send a private message to Mark_EversonSend a Message to UIN: 30578681 Visit Mark_Everson's Homepage!
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LGJ:

I just had what I think is a good idea on one of the ways that we can give characters more personality. I may have said this before, but at the risk of repeating myself...

Characters can have well-defined levels of risk-taking. Because of the way we are doing the AI, different approaches to solving problems will not only have different levels of "quality" of solution, they will also have riskiness attached to them. So some characters would be risk averse, and others willing to stake it all on a big gamble. So in determining where they would like to utilize characters, the player will have to weigh things like whether a great general is overly conservative, or tends to be a loose cannon. This might make the general suitable for some tasks, and more of a harm than a help in others.

I know this is nowhere near the whole answer for how to give the characters the right flavor. But I think it could be an important part of it. What do you think?

Richard Bruns
Prince
NC, USA
Nov 1999
posted August 16, 2000 16:17   Click Here to See the Profile for Richard BrunsClick Here to Email Richard Bruns  send a private message to Richard Bruns
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The character risk tolerance idea sounds good to me.
Lord God Jinnai
Prince
Arnold, Mo 63010
Sep 1999
posted August 16, 2000 17:14   Click Here to See the Profile for Lord God JinnaiClick Here to Email Lord God Jinnai  send a private message to Lord God JinnaiSend a Message to UIN: 57262757 Visit Lord God Jinnai's Homepage!
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Yes I believe it does have a lot of benifits, but that's not all. Here's some ideas of what i have right now for personality:

Daringness: How much risk the character is willing to take.

Morals: How much they abide by the morals of their inherant ethic group and/or civ.

Enthusiasm: How well they do the job task they are assigned to do. I'd like this to be able to be relative to specific tasks if possible.

Ego: Higher this is the more respect they will claim. Also those of lower economic classes will be treater more porely as well as those of opposing social classes.

Defiance: This is the measure of dislike for authority. I'd also like to make this one relative to different characters like Enthusiasm.

I think that covers most of the possible outcomes...anyway its a start...though i would like some ideas how the relative ones could work.

Mark_Everson
Clash of Civilizations
Project Lead

Canton, MI, USA
b.02-15-99
posted August 16, 2000 18:52   Click Here to See the Profile for Mark_EversonClick Here to Email Mark_Everson  send a private message to Mark_EversonSend a Message to UIN: 30578681 Visit Mark_Everson's Homepage!
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Sounds good to me! Now we just have to get a wizard to do the text scripting
roquijad
Clash of Civilizations
Government Model

Santiago
Nov 1999
posted August 16, 2000 21:32   Click Here to See the Profile for roquijadClick Here to Email roquijad  send a private message to roquijad
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LGJ:

Here's a list of characters that for now at least could be useful for govt, social and riots models. I don't want to get involved yet in solving how exactly these characters will affect things (to avoid commiting myself in a lot of threads), so I'm just helping you have an overall idea of characters for these models.

Social Model
Profet: Increases spreading speed for a religion.
Nationalist leader: Increases nationalism for an ethnic group.
Religious Fanatic: Increases Importance of Religion in all ethnic groups with a given religion.
Ethnic Fanatic: Decreases Ethnic Tolerance in an ethnic group.

Riots Model
Extremist: Increases chances for events (protests, attempts of murdering the ruler, etc)
Special police agent: Decreases chances for events.

Govt Model
Ideologic leader: Increases spreading rate for a given ideology and also increases its attractiveness to the eyes of the people.
Govt propagandist: Increases people's support for the govt.
Wise politician: increases de facto political power for a given social class.

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