Our web site will become increasingly important as the grafix and program modules get going.

We will also need some active pages for visitors to log in & etc. and to report bugs.

Also it will have to fit within our budget, that is to say, free.

Welcome to the project. The web page looks good, and here I thought Kull had hidden talents . Dominique, who is our web master, should be returning from vacation today. So hopefully the two of you can touch bases soon and figure out how to divide efforts.

If you have some time in the meantime, we still need pictures for potential use in the logo. The needs are described in: ../../Forum21/HTML/000091.html if you have talents for finding stuff on the web or wherever.

[Neo-Nazi group url removed by Mark
No more like this Dominic...]

He, are all those civers getting mad??? first Harlan, normally doing excellent Civ mod packs, includes a Hitler portrait in his leader picture mod, now here another nice Hitler is presented...

NO!

I swear to God that I never, ever will use a picture of that demon in any kind of game, nor in any accompanying web site, whatsoever!

Btw. the site mentioned is a nicely camouflaged nazi page and is definitely against the law over here in Germany. It is ridiculous, too... just have a look at the links they present and you know which scholl of thinking they come from...

My strong antagonism vs. Hitler as an illustration is not becuase it's illegal to use any kind of nazi symbol over here, but because I have the very strong feeling that this "unperson" is utterly unusable as a part of any game as long as it isn't absolutely necessary for historical correctness. Having read "Mein Kampf" in the original text, I also cannot agree to associatie this half-educated maniac with any of the so-called "great persons" of history. Hitler can be compared to Nero at best, and really isn't suited to be shown as some kind of "head of civilization". Just the opposite, Hitler represents the DECLINE of civilization.

phew. flame off

Sorry, but I'm really a bit upset about this topic...

Dominique,

I hope this doesn't affect of have put that on a post. I'm sorry but that is what I thought you meant.

Erm, "brother in name" (Dominic) - do I get you right? From what I read, I understand you did the web site withe now erased url???

http://members.xoom.com/Kull1/

I'm just a friend to Kull, in fact we are in the same town.

What are you going to use to make the site?; I use "Front Page 98."

What does this mean?
"I understand you did the web site withe now erased url???"

Oh I get it know! I guess so.

[This message has been edited by Dominic (edited June 07, 1999).]

Well done, Kull's page - as far as one can get using Frontpage (no, I'm not an MS fan, really).

No, I don't use FP, being a strong believer in typing the code myself (I use Homesite 4.0 with some help of Dreamweaver if tables are getting complicated). But most of my sites use lots of perl scripts and sometimes javascript / DHTML (for those shiny effects).

I think the Apolyton site itself gives a nice model to form the CLASH site after.

And as for you being the designer of the www.hi..r.org site - after my above rant I don't think a further comment is necessary, is it?

Please tell me that you are in no way associated with that "project" proper, and you are the designer only (although I personally would refuse to do such a dirty job).

Did you READ what they write? Do you KNOW what kind of idiocy is on several of those pages?

I find it amazing how some people on the web deal with the issue of nazism, really...

maybe it's just my personal preference of using ancient motifs rather than modern one... on the other hand, I often am a bit reluctant of using portraits of more contemporary persons in a game. To overdo it a bit: While it is absolutely acceptable to put George Wahington on a game cover, a portrait of George Bush might offend several people (maybe including Mr. Bush).

what exactly do you mean "something like this"?

- the solarizing effect?

- the faded shadows?

- the texture on the letters?

All of these gimmicks could be done (easily and in minutes), but I didn't do it yet for 2 reasons:

a) It's very easy to go overboard with these - while effects look good on pure letters (like in your example) they can easily destroy the overall appeal of a whole (graphical) logo

b) We have a preliminary logo only, and it's no use to do the detail work before the overall layout is fixed.

1) I'm not a Nazi (neo or otherwise)

2) Dominic did not design that nazi site and neither one of us has anything to do with it.

3) I personally find Hitler repellant, but if we decide to omit all the "leaders" who comitted "crimes against humanity", there's a very long list who won't appear in Clash of Civilizations.

4) I'm sure we can find quite a number of "politically correct" individuals to put on the cover, but if they aren't WIDELY RECOGNIZABLE, then we risk losing those buyers who's first contact with Clash will be the Logo/Box Cover.

5) Like it or not, many civ-type players are WWII buffs, and you-know-who is an instantly recognizable symbol of that war, and that's the ONLY reason I suggested using him as a symbol for modern era warfare.

Let's see if we can concentrate on designing a really interesting game that reflects the world as it was and is and leave the value judgements to the philosophers.

Let me apologize to you and Dominic. We straightened the issues out by email, and I should have made sure that those results were clearly represented in the forum.

On the later issues in your post, I simply think it sends the wrong message to have a recent figure known for their atrocities as one of the Only two figures in the Clash logo. The game represents so much more that this, and it would give the wrong impression if nothing else. On the general historical topic of genocidal maniacs, I agree that the further you go back, the harder it is to find a great leader that wasn't one...

So I think we should at least avoid any modern (say post-1900) leader who committed genocide. (Probably we should avoid any post-1900 leader altogether.) And yes that knocks out several one might consider. But I think it in poor taste if nothing else to put them there. If there are people still alive who lost loved ones directly due to the institutional murder instigated by a leader then I think that leader should not be considered for inclusion in the logo.

The sketch that the penny is based on can be found at
http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton/Lincoln14.html

This would give us a recent historical figure that at least the US buyers would recognize and not be all that controversial.

Rebel

It's certainly true that often "great" leaders were quite militaristic (to say the least). Even Frederic II. of Prussia, widely known as a philosopher and tolerant ruler, initiated a series of wars which in the end did cost the lives of many thousand people (sigh...).

The question is: Do the portraits on the logo really have to be recognizable personalities? Isn't it much more important for the logo to express the style / atmosphere of the game? That's why I used the statues - hadn't I found two actually well-known individuals, I would have been satisfied with any two good-looking statues.

Anyway, since I like the two portraits used now and no one hinted yet where to find some good (and large!) reproductions of more appropriate leaders, I'll leave it this way until someone hands me ofer better material...

Btw., please feel free to comment on

http://www.qed.de/work/clash/ ,

the layout prototype for the new CLASH site.

Looks Great! I can't wait to see the whole thing

but the whole thing in cgi??? "Ouch!" I hear our server going....

------------------
Markos, Apolyton Civilization Site

I'd be willing to help in Webpage design, too.