As a web designer (and graphics maniac), of course I'm primarily concerned with how it should look - and here the important question of a Clash logo comes up.

Any ideas? I feel that something like the front cover of "Warcraft II: Orcs vs. Humans" would be exactly in the right mood.

I agree with you that the threads need to be put into proposals that sum up the gist of the discussion and agreement. I Can't do it all. I think we'll get more people in soon and hopefully among them will be some with organizational skills in addition to the other things they bring...

I'd say when we have several more concrete things to add it would be time to let you loose on the web-page redesign . However MarkG here at Apolyton is waiting for a screenshot to do a rough preview of Clash... So when we know roughly what to put in a screenshot (and you're already making progress!) I'd rate that above the web page redesign.

On the logo. Yes, we need it soon. WII, These two guys staring menacingly at each other? It doesn't do anything for me.

I'd like something that says that you can do different things in the game: war, economics, government, technology etc. But how to say this in a logo is beyond me...

The WC2 came to mind because my dictionary explains "clash" as "confrontation, collision, bumping into, impact, conflict". And that's quite nicely shown in those two faces.

But, hehe, I get the feeling I get to know you slowly - your approach to the logo is TYPICAL for what from you so far: You want do do it all, show it all, the more info the better

Believe me, I tend to handle things the same way but had to learn that in gfx design that simply is not the way to go. In design, you play with emotions, quick thoughts at best.

So what's needed for a logo is something that transmit the atmosphere of the game.

You want something quite intellectual, but that's not what people like. They don't want to think, they want to FEEL. Your idea is absolutely to the point as for what Clash really IS... but does that matter?

Just think of some of the more successful games and their logos:

CIV2 had no logo - but it had the name instead (better than any new logo can be).

The "General" series used war medals.

All very basic logos.

Quake - great logo! Saying absolutely nothing but VERY impressive in the literal sense.

CtP - (hm... successful?) uses that compass-like thing. Again, some abstraction.

The Ultima line uses mainly the Ankh as a symbol.

Tell ya what: I'll just make something up and you then just say what you think of it - I won't be angry if you don't like it, ok?

Just a short comment on this one:

Other than Mark I feel that a SIMPLE and more or less ABSTRACT logo is best. Too many bells and whistles and you will only make the customer(?) uncertain of what this really is about.

I chose a portrait of Pericles, since he's one of the very few leaders in history who really reflects most aspects of what Clash is to be: He was statesman, politician, economist, philosopher, strategist...

I set him in two different colors so as to stress the conflict situation (the "clash" has to be transmitted somehow).

As for now, I didn't do any graphical fancywork (3D effects and the like). Maybe this could be added, but 3D has lost much of it's spectacularity since there are so many programs out there which allow even the youngest kid to design 3D logos.

Please don't spare me with criticism!

I think the concept is good, and see what you mean about the visceral aspect. The dual-Pericles look has Got to go though... We need a similar Periclean figure from some other culture (and probably time) for the "flip-side" image IMO. Winston Churchill would be good for the theme, but that would leave us with two european cultures.

Ideally, the portrait would come from a totally different culture (someone chinese would be nice) or be more modern. But I feel somehow it wouzldn't be too good to take a person from newer history (like Churchill). It's somehow strange to "abuse" such people's portrait for a game, don't you think?

See, not only that we have to go through all this "what should economy be like" etc. - many more aspects must be decided on. Even for such a "simple" thing like a logo there are fundamental aspects which have to be decided - because lateron it will be too late. Remember, the logo is the "face".

So, the points are:

- colors: I chose red / green only for the reason that they are the "classical" left / right colors. Obviously, we could instead use red / blue (the classical "enemy / friend" colors). Or we could do the faces in metallic tones...

- the rim / the letters: Do you think we should stick to the gold / silver patern? What about 3D? As it is now, that's all simple and flat.

- The font: I used a simple Times New Roman for now, which gives it a very classical look. Maybe too old-fashioned?

To take your idea of incorporating the different aspects of Clash into the logo (I didn't say this was a BAD idea, mind you): How about putting little logos incorporating these aspects into the corners of the logo? And, if so, what logos (something representing military, science, economy, politics)?

You might say all these are not-so-important questions, but, really, at the moment this is ALL WE HAVE and it is to stay the same until the "end", so this job must be done well! Remember, should Clash indeed some day "hit the shelves", then it NEEDS a placative logo - and a professional one (and while I'm a web designer and know how to use my tools, logo design is NOT my primary concern normally).

Anyway, I'd like to have as much input on this one from as many people as possible

Last thing for now: Should I try to put a (darkened) globe in the background of the circle so as to symbolize the "world game" character of Clash?

I really like your notion of cameo sort of pieces in the corners. Ideally I'd like them to span over several "dimensions":
Game Areas, as you said: military, science, economy, politics
Eras: Ancient, Midieval, E. Modern, Contemporary
Cultures / Ethnicities: As wide as possible within the other constraints.

I like the globe idea very much too, if you can get away with it. IMO it will probably fight with the pictures in the corners...

OK others, lets give Dominique some opinions!

Her opinion was, no globes or corner insets, since they'd clutter it up too much. (I think I agree with her after some thought.) IHO the lettering and layout was good as is. She suggested the faces should be Queen Elizabeth I and Gengis Khan, which I think is a very good suggestion. It kind of catches one of the biggest transitions in history in motion. They'd probably be found in paintings rather than statuary. Whether they can be found in profile or not, who knows.

Last version for today:

Yes, right, the green was a bit too strong - tried it with blue this time; problem is that green at the same brightness looks more intense than red (that's why red light has such a soothing effect...).

Mark, your wife's idea concerning Ghengis and QE2 is very good... if now just someone could give me good PROFILE pictures of them? For now, I settle with Cleopatra, at least she's a woman

Furthermore, I inserted that small starfire in the middle to stress the "clash" aspect - and made the word "CLASH" chrome 3D, to stress it further as the "main title".

Any pictures used should have clearly emphasised eyes, since they convey emotion so well.

Pericles without his pupils just looks, well, lifeless. (duh)

That was the first thing that struck me about the orcs vs humans picture in WC2 - the way they were eyeballing each other; starting each other down.

The red vs blue colour scheme is really good, although a metallic scheme might look better. I don't know. Are you going to post a 'library' of logos anywhere?

first, I think the background color can be changed from the black it is now. I don´t know to what, maybe gray or yellow?

- metallic: I, too, believe the figures shouldn't be metallic

- Ghengis Khan: No way of finding a 3D-pic of him. I found some drwan illustrations of Temujin, but that's it.

- Cleopatra: Strange, you all fell for it - of course it's Nofretete But here you can see one very important thing: It doesn't count that much if the persons on the logo really are great leaders etc. - all that counts is that people recognze them SOMEHOW and are familiar with the logo from the first glance

- "Love at first sight": I wouldn't reject the picture if it WERE this way... after all, a good civlike game CAN be quite warles and cooperative, right?

- for now, I'll try to give Pericles pupils, wonder how this will look like...

- "Civilization" will become bigger.

- color should be black, I think. It's a rule that most illustration look best on black background - that's why most photographers use it, and that's why most game sites on the web feature black pages, as well (ever noticed?).

I redid it from scratch and hope it's a bit better now in some details - mainly Pericles' somewhat fierce expression

Btw., some not so unimportant aspect is how good you can scale down the logo, because we should be able to incorporate it in small form in the game itself, too - so it better be not too complicated. For now, even on 140 x 140 it's quite recognizable, I think (the original size I work with is 1024 x 1024):

I looked around for QEI last night but couldn't come up with anything in profile.

I think Perilces looks a little too fierce, kinda like a raving lunatic. Perhaps just a dash of white nearer the nose. (those who can, do, those who can't criticise)

For a final I still think we need two more different time periods or cultures. I will look around and see Who can be come up with in profile.

My wife said "That's not Cleopatra, thats Nefertari", but we were too polite to correct you

Have Fun,

Of course, the IDEAL confrontation would be e.g.

- female, European, modern leader

vs.

- male, asian, ancient leader

But I feel it's more important to have that "yes, I recognize them!" feeling - as for Pericles, I'm sure no one will recognize him, but at least you recognize the image as that of an antique statue, giving the logo that sophisticated nuance

And while personalyity contrasts are fine, the IMAGES should be in harmony, i.e. either 2 oil paintings or 2 photographs or 2 statues. Mixing those types doesn't look convincing (and you can only do so much by image manipulation).

Changes:
- "CLASH" gets a dark border again, because it's better readable this way

- all other letters with different (lighter) texture (better readable)

- Pericles now doesn't look like a maniac.

- Smaller version optimized to smooth circle

These versions should appear at the web site (entry page / all other pages).

The last version is really good looking. I can imagine I go to a computer shop and pick from the shelf.

that's about the biggest compliment you can do towards someone who is used to do web graphics only normally

1) Mark likes it

2) The font now used is "Times New Roman", so as well a widely known font (no "fancy font") as one fitting to the "classical" graphical theme.

3) Choosing such a common font makes it easier to create fitting headlines / text in game, manual, web site...

If you're going to try and make this product a commercial success, and if it "kinda sorta" looks like some other product, you face potential legal issues. The more different you are, the less likely those issues will arise.

Legal aspects: No problem - since I emphasized "CLASH" so heavily, we shouldn't fear anything like that. And it's "Civilizations" (plural!), so definitely (and legally correct) NOT a copy of the trademarked name, but usage of the word as a common noun... did I mention having studied law for 2 years?

But, thinking of it and to avoid any least risk - wouldn't " The CLASH of the CULTURES" (either with or without both "the") sound

There was also no reason for the national burger chain, McDonalds, to sue a hi-class steak house called MacDonalds Steak House. But they did.

If Clash is not very successful it wont be an issue. I'm concerned that if it flies high, it will be a target.

......
Um.. would this game project have attracted as much interest if it hadnt had the "Civ-word" in it? if it had been called "Culture Shock" ? If your answer to that is that the C-word mattered, then there is a potential problem, down the road.

I'd rather *avoid* the problem then try and win it later against a major corporation's legal team.
........

"Struggle for Survival" ?

I am speaking as someone who just recently stumbled on this forum, so take my comments with a grain of salt. In my opinion, when I look at the logo, I think the game is a battle between two ancient civilizations. I don't get the feeling of the growth of the civilization in time and I don't get the feeling of multiple civs. The faces in profile may be the best way to go, but I think some brainstorming should be done to be sure that there isn't a better way to go.

Haven't thought this through, but, how about a throne (applies up to recent history at least) seen from slightly below, or a bunch of tattered flags on poles with one raised way above the others (signifying conquer), or something?

your opinion is more or less the same as Mark's, and you definitely make a valid point in the current version of the logo not showing all those aspects.

I'm still thinking how these aspects could be included, but trust me insofar as there is no use in stuffing all related things into the MAIN logo, while it might be a very good idea to let the logo be accompanied by some related attributes. The viewer wants to have a quick first impression, and it better have an emotional touch, otherwise it will be forgotten all to soon.

But at least the thing with the "only two cultures" could be addressed by having not 2, but, say 6 statues facing each other in a half circle?

The Gem: Even though the idea disappeared early in the thread, I think the multifaceted gem still has a role to play. On the back of the box. I'd recommend including a "sparkle" off one of the facets, which mirrors the one between Pericles and Nefretari. A nice continuity vehicle. It's also a good overall symbol, and can carry the continuity through to Clash II (yes, I'm WAY ahead of the power curve on this one, but it bears thinking about.)

The Title: "To the or not to the, that is the question...." I'm tempted to say, "flip a coin", but the marketing types will tell you that fewer words are always better. Hrafnkell may have a point, Mark.

"Clash of Cultures": The "C"'s work, but in the USA this title will never fly. The media is full of references to the "Culture Wars" (and they don't mean civ games!), and I think that title would be misinterpreted....especially since IMO the profile of Nefretari looks an awful lot like Hilary Clinton!

Legal: The use of "Civilization" in the title may very well prove legally problematic. We need look no further than the legal frenzy over Activision's use of "Civilization" in their title. Although Dominique may have a point that it's just being used as a noun, the fact is that both games will occupy the same marketing niche, and that may carry more legal weight. It wouldn't hurt to start thinking of an alternative. Here's one for you all to laugh at: "Clash and Conquest".