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but jet engines is the very blatant one. I usually add jet fighters. sometimes I go a while before getting stealth, and jet fighters and bombers really help.

And the cannon should results from gunpowder since cannons came before muskets.

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quote: Originally posted by RedWhiteArcher on 04-18-2001 04:50 AM Actually you do need to have archer so early. There was acutlay a really civilization even before the great egyptian that discovered not only archery but astronomy

Actually, astronomy was one of the first "advances" by almost EVERYBODY in the world. Calendars are all astronomy based. Almost universally, Saturn is the keeper of time in myth, or the one who gave knowledge of it to man. Saturn the planet is used for long time count - it meets Jupiter in the sky every ~20 years, and the 42nd meeting is at the same place in the sky as the first. It took good observation and tradition to do, but everybody managed to note this. Famous astronomy examples are the Sphynx (faced the rising constellation of Leo about 12000 years ago, when it was built; the great pyramids point to a sky that existed when the sphynx was built 7000 years before; the Lascaux Cave paintings of the bull/7 sisters matches the stars in the sky near the winter solstice. That civ2 can justify astronomy coming so late may be that they intended applied uses...

Archery has been around for many thousands of years, as well. This was no invention of dark-age englishmen...

I too am a great admirer of the tech tree. I encouraged my daughter to play, years ago now, because I think the game does lead to an improved intuitive grasp on the exciting fact that the thinking and experience of one man or one group can both dramatically affect all those in the immediate vicinity but also cross fertilises in wonderfully exciting ways with thinking elsewhere or from an entirely different age.

I remember as a lad being struck forcefully by somewhat similar ideas when studying economic history at 16. The way that the work of, say, Turnip Townsend pushed on the agricultural revolution and then the way that the Kay's flying shuttle or Cartwright's power loom led to the industrial revolution partly because of the existence of a pool of free labour created by the agricultural developments is intriguing.

It is easy to wonder whether there is an inevitability about the way all the synergies work or whether it might, had various butterflies not beat their wings exactly as they did, been totally different.

Because of the way it sometimes happens that two complementary discoveries don't get put together for an age and a half (and because of things like the dark ages) I rather incline to the "it might have been very different" school.

One of the glories of life, for me, that the thought of just one man, on one day, with chance playing a huge part, has affected and can still affect the whole sweep of the development of mankind at large.

Dissident, EST, perhaps you should take a look-see at a scenario called The Modern Age, it contains a very different tech tree than the default, and might suit your tastes more.

Thanks for the weaving idea; I'm developing a scenario now in which I am looking for archaic techs to include. That's a good one.