Isn't the spirit that always preveils? Rome conquered an already inner divided greece and took away the DEMOCRACY of it - not the «anarchy» as it may seem to those who have not fully understood it.
Still the spirit preveils. Greece conquered rome in spirit by imposing its culture on the romans and that's why the roman empire was not just one more massive acquisition of lands but actually divided the world into «civilized» and «barbaric». And romes practises towards conquered people were nothing new.

1) Power. Military might. etc. Number one in history. Only the USSR stood a chance, but they lose out in every other factor. Sure we lost Vietnam (for political reasons), but otherwise undefeated.

2)Standard of living. Our standard of living while not the highest is very high.

3)Economy. Strongest in history.

4)Political system. Has been a stable representative republic for longer than anyone else.

5)Science. Won the race to the moon, built the manhattan project. Definately up there.

chinese: they were never conquered and ruled vast lands in eastern asia for thousands of year. culture and inventions were the most developed until the late middle ages.

japanese: deto never got conquered. they had an old-fashioned feudalistic system until the late 19th century. within a few decades they boomed to a major power through adapting european ideas.

romans: they definetly took a major role in european history but had a luck of culture. if they weren´t neighbours of the "barbarian" tribes they would barely look so civilized.

They seem to have established really stable societies which had adapted harmoniously with their environment and in which individuals could flourish.

Plainly by the tests proposed in this thread (military might, invention, influence on others) they do not figure. But if the test were to be the creation of a happy and stable society I suspect they would rate high. Their religious thinking was certainly of a sophistication far in advance of any of the other civs championed here.

More like 50 years. Every since WW2 ended it's been USA and USSR neck and neck for #1 with no one (maybe China) close. Most powerful Civ in history.

>2) Its all relative, standard of living is hard to measure with any historical accuracy. Anyway, there are people in the States that live in conditions that would not look too out of place in the third world.<

That's why I did not say that USA is #1 in standard of living but they are high. This differentiates us from the USSR and the Ancient civs. Rome might have conquered more of the world, but where would you want to live USA right now, or in the Roman empire?? Technology aside.

>4) Oh please. Two achievements that aren’t even that good. The USSR got to space first which is better than the moon and the Chinese got gunpowder which is better than the bomb. Your real achievements are things like electric lighting and, um, the phonograph. Look at the Scots, we do TV, Penicillin, Malaria vaccine, Telephone etc. On top of that we do some genuinely good civilising things like the first public education policy and I wouldn’t say we come in the top ten.<

How about: the automobile, the airplane, the internet,
the first real computer, the telephone (Bell immigrated to the US before inventing it.), the binary circut, high resolution radar, I can go on.

Plus, our political freedom helps make it not even a close comparison with the Romans.

quote: Originally posted by Action on 01-25-2001 10:27 AM Plus, our political freedom helps make it not even a close comparison with the Romans.

Can someone be a coommunist in USA or the FBI will take over or (worst still) is it considered «bad»?

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 01-25-2001 11:19 AM Can someone be a coommunist in USA or the FBI will take over or (worst still) is it considered «bad»? P.S. This is not a «retaliation», this is a geniune question. I don't live in USA (which is only one of the MANY democratic countries in the world) and I don't know how things go there

You can be a Communist here in the states. There is a Communist party in the US, but it's not very popular. It depends on what part of the country you live in, too. The Pacific Northwest and California are probably the most liberal areas, so being a Commie there would probably go unnoticed. I've been to the deep South and I'd say if there are Communists there, they probably don't tell anyone.

--Workers of the World, Unite!!!

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 01-25-2001 01:41 PM [QUOTE]Originally posted by Caesar the Glutton on 01-25-2001 01:33 PM --Workers of the World, Unite!!!

Understood. I think Civ 2 is the only world in which Communist Government actually works anyway. It's my favorite type.

So I will answer with a civ that if it hadn't existed, the world would be very different. This civ isn't recognized as uber innovators like the Greeks and such. This civ is mor like a nexxus between the ancient and modern worlds.

Well, my civ is the Byzantines. The Byzantines if you do not know was the evolved Eastern Roman Empire that survived the Germanic invasion and the fall of the empire in the west. The Byzantines preserved Hellenic and Roman civilization while western Europe was rebuilding itself and other civs like China and India were recovering from their own bouts with nomadic tribes. During the rise of Islam during the latter 1st mellennium, it was the Byzantines that were the first line of defence for Western Civilization in it's modern infancy. If Byzantium had fallen during those early times, Europe, therefore the world would be a very different place. By the time Constantinople (the Byzantine capital) had fallen in 1453, Western Europe had become strong enough to defend itself and was poised to project its power around the globe. In fact, Western Europe matured at the right time, since Byzantium was in decline, as shown by the Crusades. Byzantium was responsible for the Rennaisance in Italy, since it was Byzantines escaping the fall of Constantinople in 1453 who brought over much of Greek and Roman art, literature, etc so that they would not be destroyed by the Turks.

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-24-2001 08:38 PM Modern democracy is much closer to the greek one man one vote concept then the roman concept of plebians and equites.

When speaking of Empire, Rome indeed was tryannical in nature, a monarchy without the title. But the Roman Republic has a far greater influence on modern democracy than the Greeks ever did. Just read the US Constitution, which revived the Roman Republic in a way. The senate, representative gov't and a code of laws were all Roman innovations, as opposed to every single vote counting for every single gov't decsion, which slows down gov't and allows those who do not have proper experience and knowledge of issues to have active involvement in gov't operations. There are many nations that based their constitutions on the American. Parlimentary gov'ts are also influenced by the Roman Republic, but not to such a degree (common law).

quote: Originally posted by Vitmore The Great on 01-25-2001 03:25 PM Byzantium was responsible for the Rennaisance in Italy, since it was Byzantines escaping the fall of Constantinople in 1453 who brought over much of Greek and Roman art, literature, etc so that they would not be destroyed by the Turks. Vitmore

I am surprised you have mentioned the Byzantines. What you say about Byzantium being the «defendor» of western Europe during the collapse of civilization there is true. Of course we didn't hang on and persevered for the shake of western Europe... but because we wanted to stay alive in our own (corrupted to the bone) empire.

In the last words of Constantinos Palaiologos (the last king of Byzantium) when the ottomans had broken the walls gotten into Constantinople fighting with the Byzantines and his was surrouned by turks with all his brothers in arms dead: «Isn't there a Christian to take my head».

WOW That would make for an epic movie!

There are a tone of myths in Greece relevant to the liberation and recapture of Constantinople (now Instabul). This is folkore and the greeks feel pretty much satisfied with what the have but still it reflects the HUGE shock of losing it. A shock of historical magnitude that has lived through legends even to the modern times.

A nice trip that I would recommend is to go to Greece and then to Italy and particularly in Venice. See the Cathedral of San Marco and then bring to mind any greek church.

quote: Originally posted by Vitmore The Great on 01-25-2001 03:25 PM Byzantium was responsible for the Rennaisance in Italy, since it was Byzantines escaping the fall of Constantinople in 1453 who brought over much of Greek and Roman art, literature, etc so that they would not be destroyed by the Turks. Vitmore

I am surprised you have mentioned the Byzantines. What you say about Byzantium being the «defendor» of western Europe during the collapse of civilization there is true. Of course we didn't hang on and persevered for the shake of western Europe... but because we wanted to stay alive in our own (corrupted to the bone) empire.

In the last words of Constantinos Palaiologos (the last king of Byzantium) when the ottomans had broken the walls gotten into Constantinople fighting with the Byzantines and his was surrouned by turks with all his brothers in arms dead: «Isn't there a Christian to take my head».

WOW That would make for an epic movie!

There are a tone of myths in Greece relevant to the liberation and recapture of Constantinople (now Instabul). This is folkore and the greeks feel pretty much satisfied with what the have but still it reflects the HUGE shock of losing it. A shock of historical magnitude that has lived through legends even to the modern times.

A nice trip that I would recommend is to go to Greece and then to Italy and particularly in Venice. See the Cathedral of San Marco and then bring to mind any greek church.