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Problem 1

I was not able to find out how Civ2 specify set of advances allowed for next research on any Civ-oriented web pages. There are some opinions that two advances from the same category (military, economic...) can't follow one another, but I think it is false. I thought about it, and perhaps I found out how it is done:

If difficulty level is Chieftain then following statement is true:

(1)	Advance ADV is in selection even as  <NotYet(ADV)> and <TreeOK(ADV)>

If difficulty level is not Chieftain then following statement is true:

(2)	Advance ADV is in selection even as  <NotYet(ADV)> and <TreeOK(ADV)> and (not <CaughtByFilter(ADV)> or <First(ADV)>)

where

<NotYet(ADV)>	=	ADV was not discovered yet
<TreeOK(ADV)>	=	both prerequisites (preq1 and preq2) were discovered (or taken any other way) yet
<CaughtByFilter(ADV)>	=	<Ord(ADV)> = (<NumberOfAdvances> mod 3) + 1
mod	=	modulo (1 mod 3 = 1, 2 mod 3 = 2, 3 mod 3 = 0,  4 mod 3 = 1, 5 mod 3 = 2, 6 mod 3 = 0, 11 mod 3 = 2,)
<NumberOfAdvances>	=	Number of advances you acquired yet  (by research, diplomacy, conquest (I did note prove this), goody hut).  Advances obtained just on the beginning of the game are not included.
<Ord(ADV)>	=	Placings (number of row) of ADV in rules.txt  (Ord(AFl)=0, Ord(Alp)=1, Ord(Amp)=2...
<First(ADV)>	=	Ord(ADV) is minimum of a set  {Ord(X) | NotYet(X) and (TreeOK(X))}  In short, ADV is the first on a list of advances that have both preq1 and preq2 yet.

Notes:

1. It means that on average approximately one third of advances are disabled for each choice of research: The set of all advances in the game is divided into three disjunctive subsets. These subsets are rotatively disabled for each choice of research. In short, they represent three filters.
2. One advance is enabled regardless on placement to the subset.
3. The set of advances provided for next research does not depend on the order how you acquired existing advances.
4. Advances obtained just on the beginning of the game affect nothing.

???       Could you tell me if I am right?

I made a simple DOS program based on my formula, it may be helpfull to plan scientific research ahead. Download:
http://home-1.worldonline.cz/~cz045662/civadvan/civ2plan.htm#civ2plan

Problem 2

Problem 3

Problem 4

Problem 5

Item 3. When looking at F6 (your advances) white means that you were the first to discover that advance. Blue is the default(normal) color. When looking at an opponent's advances (F3, check Intelligence) the white are those that You do not have and can trade for or steal. Blue is the normal color again.

Item 4. Yes you can get advances from huts without the prerequisits. Just like you can steal them without having the required techs.

You MUST have the prerequisites for any science obtained from a hut.

Think about it! If you didn't need the prerequisites you would have stupid situations. If at 4000BC you pop a hut and get Invention ... no more science from villages. The game designers don't want your first wonder to be Leo's either!

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Maybe I just haven't paid enough attention, but I'm sure that I've gotten things like Currency and Map Making without having Bronze or Alphabet. I don't normally find things like Philosophy, Monarchy or Literacy in hut anyway.

A game on a Large World was tested playing Romans/Hordes/Deity. Starting techs were Masonry and Bronze. Both settlers opened huts on the same turn during 3800BC. In all 20 Scrolls were recorded - none had different prerequisites from science already discovered. One turn both settlers found wisdom. The first one was Currency, but the second was Construction - this seemed to emphasise my point that once Currency was in F6 Construction was possible.

The techs gained were:
Pottery (8)
Warrior Code (4)
Alphabet (3)
Currency (2)
Horseback Riding (1)
Ceremonial Burial (1)
Construction (1)

During the research on starting techs we did a fair bit of research (still ongoing!) into huts in 2.42. Checking through those records I cannot see any time when a hut yielded science without the prerequisites already in place.

If your game is not heading for Democracy quickly (thus needing Invention) many quite advanced techs are available from huts. (University/Theory of Gravity/Chemistry/Medicine/Sanitation - amongst others.)

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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 12-16-2000 03:18 PM Content: This post is related to the way how Civ2 determines selection of advances offered for next research ... ... [/b]Could you tell me if I am right?

Oedo posted exactly the same formula on the Strategy forum just a few weeks ago ("Oedo's unfinisehd"). There seem to be a few glitches though, especially with Warrior Code, but perhaps we should call that a Myth .

re: your english.
Don't worry about it. First of all, it is about 97.5% correct. Second, I am sure that your English is much better than any of our Czech will ever be.

I suspect that the practical benefit of knowing what the underlying beaker rate is would be small. OCC experience has taught us how critical the adjustment made for the tech lead over the AI is. That knowledge both demonstrates how complex the formula will be and reduces the value of what detailed calculation would reveal.

Problem 5, I play 2.42 and IIRC what you describe matches my experience.

Early on the AI will often accept a different tech from the one sought and some techs are highly prized by some civs throughout. But, generally, once I am well ahead, they are keen to trade for my most recent advance - especially critical ones like gunpowder or advances which allow wonders to be built. If you offer them something else they turn their noses up. If you are not far into the dialogue though (and they are not being abrupt with you because of your dominance) you can often repeat the offer to trade and the original deal will still be on offer.

Curiously advances which allow WoW don't seem to lose their appeal just because the wonder has been built.

Slow, you are too modest. Your English is very good. Not perfect, mind you, but very good. Just be aware that not all of those who offer tips to you (me included) speak and write in perfect English themselves.

* Note to Apolyton - Any chance of getting a spell checker on the forums? *

This was discussed in an old thread. I believe it is archived under CivII Strategy and is called "A List of Data."

That thread had three important bits of information.

First, the number of beakers required for each tech is an integer multiplied by the number of the tech to be researched. First tech is A1*1, 2nd is A2*2, 3rd is A3*3, 4th is A4*4 ... 90th is A90*90. Starting techs are not included in this calculation. (The starting value for the integer is dependant upon map size and difficulty level.)

Second, the integer can be increased each research event and is increased even more if you are ahead in techs. This is the theory behind the crumby tech trading strategy and the gifting of techs in OCC. (The integer is increased every third tech after the 20th.)

Third, the integer ALWAYS takes a massive jump after the 19th tech. The 20th tech costs significantly more that the 19th. This hasn't been discussed in a while but is important (along with oedo's Law) for streamlining research paths. It is nice to get your critical research done by the 19th tech (Gunpowder, Democracy, Theory of Gravity or whatever you prefer.)

quote: Originally posted by Sequoya on 12-28-2000 05:45 PM This was discussed in an old thread. I believe it is archived under CivII Strategy and is called "A List of Data." First tech is A1*1, 2nd is A2*2, 3rd is A3*3, 4th is A4*4 ... 90th is A90*90.

Sequoya,
Unfortunately, "A list of data" is lost. I found only
archive/Civ2-Strategy/The beaker formula
with following reference:
There are some information on this topic in the thread "A list of data" by Caesar the Great with the latest update on May 13 in this forum.

But, hopefully , it wasn't lost out of your memory.

I searched for that old thread too, but I couldn't find it. It must of got lost in the archive disaster. (Just like the burning of the Great Library of Alexandria.)

Fortunately, I had pasted the actual "list of data" into a Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet for my own analysis. This data is listed below with my comments.

This data was based upon a cheat mode test. A game was started (I believe 2.42, large map, diety, raging hordes.) Cheat mode was enabled and techs were gifted one at a time and the beaker cost of each tech was recorded. Doing it this way caused a massive lead in techs that the game penalized Caesar for. These would not be the real costs in an actual game. Different game settings would give different starting values for A (as well as increment values.)

I have verified the behavior of beaker cost at emperor, king and chieftain levels. This was to confirm the beaker cost jump at the 20th tech.

To test the beaker cost in an actual game, set your research rate to 0% and check the number of turns required to research the present tech. Don't forget to reset your research rate.

"A List of Data " with notes

1. 12 = 1 * 12, A increment = 0
2. 26 = 2 * 13, A increment = 1
3. 45 = 3 * 15, A increment = 2
4. 60 = 4 * 15, A increment = 0
5. 75 = 5 * 15, A increment = 0
6. 102 = 6 * 17, A increment = 2
7. 126 = 7 * 18, A increment = 1
8. 144 = 8 * 18, A increment = 0
9. 180 = 9 * 20, A increment = 2
10. 210 = 10 * 21, A increment = 1
11. 231 = 11 * 21, A increment = 0
12. 264 = 12 * 22, A increment = 1
13. 299 = 13 * 23, A increment = 1
14. 350 = 14 * 25, A increment = 2
15. 390 = 15 * 26, A increment = 1
16. 432 = 16 * 27, A increment = 1
17. 459 = 17 * 27, A increment = 0
18. 540 = 18 * 30, A increment = 3
19. 589 = 19 * 31, A increment = 1
20. 820 = 20 * 41, A increment = 10

Note big increase in research cost.

21. 903 = 21 * 43, A increment = 2
22. 946 = 22 * 43, A increment = 0
23. 989 = 23 * 43, A increment = 0
24. 1080 = 24 * 45, A increment = 2
25. 1125 = 25 * 45, A increment = 0
26. 1170 = 26 * 45, A increment = 0
27. 1242 = 27 * 46, A increment = 1
28. 1288 = 28 * 46, A increment = 0
29. 1334 = 29 * 46, A increment = 0
30. 1440 = 30 * 48, A increment = 2
31. 1488 = 31 * 48, A increment = 0
32. 1536 = 32 * 48, A increment = 0
33. 1680 = 33 * 50, A increment = 2
34. 1700 = 34 * 50, A increment = 0
35. 1760* = 35 * 50, A increment = 0

I believe Caesar the Great confessed a possible error in the 35th data point. It was decided that the correct beaker value was probably 1750.

36. 1872 = 36 * 52, A increment = 2
37. 1942 = 37 * 52, A increment = 0
38. 1976 = 38 * 52, A increment = 0
39. 2028 = 39 * 52, A increment = 0
40. 2080 = 40 * 52, A increment = 0
41. 2132 = 41 * 52, A increment = 0
42. 2310 = 42 * 55, A increment = 3
43. 2365 = 43 * 55, A increment = 0
44. 2420 = 44 * 55, A increment = 0
45. 2520 = 45 * 56, A increment = 1
46. 2576 = 46 * 56, A increment = 0
47. 2632 = 47 * 56, A increment = 0
48. 2784 = 48 * 58, A increment = 2
49. 2842 = 49 * 58, A increment = 0
50. 2900 = 50 * 58, A increment = 0
51. 3060 = 51 * 60, A increment = 2
52. 3120 = 52 * 60, A increment = 0
53. 3180 = 53 * 60, A increment = 0
54. 3294 = 54 * 61, A increment = 1
55. 3355 = 55 * 61, A increment = 0
56. 3416 = 56 * 61, A increment = 0
57. 3591 = 57 * 63, A increment = 2
58. 3654 = 58 * 63, A increment = 0
59. 3717 = 59 * 63, A increment = 0
60. 3900 = 60 * 65, A increment = 2
61. 3965 = 61 * 65, A increment = 0
62. 4030 = 62 * 65, A increment = 0
63. 4158 = 63 * 66, A increment = 1
64. 4224 = 64 * 66, A increment = 0
65. 4290 = 65 * 66, A increment = 0
66. 4422 = 66 * 67, A increment = 1
67. 4489 = 67 * 67, A increment = 0
68. 4556 = 68 * 67, A increment = 0
69. 4830 = 69 * 70, A increment = 3
70. 4900 = 70 * 70, A increment = 0
71. 4970 = 71 * 70, A increment = 0
72. 5112 = 72 * 71, A increment = 1
73. 5183 = 73 * 71, A increment = 0
74. 5254 = 74 * 71, A increment = 0
75. 5400 = 75 * 72, A increment = 1
76. 5472 = 76 * 72, A increment = 0
77. 5544 = 77 * 72, A increment = 0
78. 5850 = 78 * 75, A increment = 3
79. 5925 = 79 * 75, A increment = 0
80. 6000 = 80 * 75, A increment = 0
81. 6156 = 81 * 76, A increment = 1
82. 6232 = 82 * 76, A increment = 0
83. 6308 = 83 * 76, A increment = 0
84. 6552 = 84 * 78, A increment = 2
85. 6630 = 85 * 78, A increment = 0
86. 6708 = 86 * 78, A increment = 0
87. 6786 = 87 * 78, A increment = 0
88. 6864 = 88 * 78, A increment = 0
89. 6942 = 89 * 78, A increment = 0
90. 7290 = 90 * 81, A increment = 3

Thanks to Caesar the Great, and others, for their original research.

As some may be able to guess, I have been lurking around Apolyton for a long time. I registered for an account only a couple of months ago and don't post often, which is why I am just a settler.

I tested with 2 civs and cheat menu:

10 ; Tech paradigm (higher # slows research)

Here's a small tip to enhance your fine English: I think you're using "yet" in places where most English speakers would use "already." Take a look in your Czech-English dictionary (which, for political reasons, didn't exist when I visited your lovely country and your lovely city in 1986.)