Can't say I've done the CTP2 thang, but what's the problem with ToT? It's simply Civ2 plus a totally unreasonable diplomacy model, dark moving graphics, and huge scenario building potential?

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly on 12-06-2000 04:57 AM Okay, now I have to ask: what's unreasonable about the diplomacy in ToT?

Your allies are regularly canceling alliances at 'the drop of a hat', you need to give away technology and cash at a frightening rate just to keep peace treaties in tact, their attitude takes a lot of gift giving to get up to 'worshipful', etc. I recently tried an OCC game and went for the Eiffel Tower in preference to Darwin just to see if that would help curtail the persistent demands, thinking that the developers deliberately tried to enrich the value of this wonder (usually seen as one of the most useless) - it didn't.

I also suspect that exploitation of 'requesting a tribute from our gracious allies' was a significant problem with game balance, and shifting the A.I.'s attitude quickly down from 'worshipful' to 'reserved' may be an attempt to counter balance this approach.

Maybe it's a Deity level thing however, and at lower levels, the A.I. may respond more reasonably to negotiations(?).

This hostility has made scenario authoring somewhat more challenging, as attempts to create an environment of accuracy (e.g. the United States and the United Kingdom retaining an alliance with negotiations enabled in a WW2 scenario) has become more difficult, as the A.I. tribes tend to gang-up on the human player.

Just FYI, I don't think what you're describing is only true at Deity level; as far as I can tell, it gets bad beginning at King, and starts becoming downright unmanageable at Emperor. Even with a spotless reputation, I have trouble trading techs at King, and making alliances seems to be out of the question; at Emperor, tech trading and maintaining peace are both so difficult that I've come to think of sacking cities as my primary research strategy. Anyway, thanks again for the insight.

Now I just finished the Original gamel in ToT at King level, and when the game ended (spaceship) I was allied to the Persians, the Babylonians and the Greeks. A Quadrouple alliance! Several times during the game I was given advances for free, as gifts. My reputation was spotless. I have never experienced *anything* similar at King level in MGE. Never.

It could be like you say, that Deity is "unplayable", but King definitely isn't! And a far better (single-)playing experience than MGE in my opinion. I seriously doubt I will ever play a singleplayer game of MGE again.

BTW: A great ToT-oriented site: http://civ.cx/

Gosh i hope civ 3 is a great game and not just a civ2 mod.

Admittedly civ2 has ruined me for other TBS games. If they dont' match up to civ, i don't usually give them enough time to impress me or win me over, which is sad as i am sure there are many other great games out there.