It's hard to write a program making all the various permutations happen, so the stacking prohibition (you can't bribe a unit if there're a whole lot of units around watching it) and the Democratic prohibition (at a certain stage, troops are more loyal to the nation than to the leader).

That last one is a pest, of course, because not all nations reach a that stage at the same time. Fascist Italians surrendered very quickly. Fascist Germans fought stubbornly, at great odds.

As for modern bribery, all of France was not conquered by the Germans; a large southern section was permitted to rule itself (Vichy France) in return for surrender. A bit more than 684 gold, but it worked. And France today is still trying to get over that one.

Marshal Petain, who could quite easily have been a Nazi, ran Vichy France for the Germans, and ought to have been hung as a traitor after the war. It was realized, however, that if Petain was executed, they'd have to execute a lot more, plus put about a quarter of France in prison to be watched over by the other three quarters.

That, of course, would mean a civil war, so they put Petain in prison as a collaborator, which meant they could then ignore lesser collaborators, and try to keep the country together.

Which was another sort of bribe, really.

Anyhow, I get sort of annoyed if someone brib nes my Alpine troops, but then, I try to stick everybody in stacks.

And on occasion, I bribe their Marines.

I guess you gotta take the bad with the good.

Older times it makes more sense - most older armies were mercenary in nature, or made up of peasant classes.

City bribery is another thing altogether. It should never be allowed, and I have considered removing the diplomat and spy units from the game.

1) Increase cost
2) Remove "Two Space Visibility" flag (from spy)
3) Remove "Ignore ZOC" flag
4) Reduce movement

quote: Originally posted by finbar on 05-06-2000 12:14 AM Back copies of "Hustler"?

Pure genius.

Venger

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-06-2000 11:13 AM Of course, if you're willing to modify the rules.txt file, there are ways to mitigate this game imbalance. I often do one or more of the following to diplos/spies: 1) Increase cost 2) Remove "Two Space Visibility" flag (from spy) 3) Remove "Ignore ZOC" flag 4) Reduce movement In general, these changes can make it much more difficult to sneak up on enemy units or slip past enemy defenses. [This message has been edited by shamrock (edited May 06, 2000).]

I've done variants on this in the past. My current rules.txt simply has the reduction in movement, which frankly is normally enough to see the SOBs incoming. I'm teetering on the ZOC issue. I mean, if all they were going to do is investigate the city, I'd leave it. Or even poison it. Or sabotage it. But bribe it? Hell no. So I'm still on the fence...

Not sure what good the two space visibility does...

quote: Originally posted by Hodad on 05-05-2000 12:28 PM Bribing units is OK. Bribing CITIES is ridiculous!

I agree

There are some irregularities about it, but then again there are some irregularities in building King Richard's Crusade if you're not the English. Or Michelangelo's Cathedral if you're not the Papal States.

And if you're the Spanish, do you build trirems, or wait until you've discovered Navigation so you can build Caravels?

I could go on and on. Why don't you just use the rules as they are, and enjoy the game?

My personal pet peeve was the names of the Civs and their cities. I've mentioned before that I'm going through progressively and renaming Civs and Cities (and Leaders)so as not to have the Babylonians and the Spanish competing at 4000 BC.

Bribery? Well, I do wish there were a way to tie it into something other than Democracy. Say, for instance, Industrialization. But even these days bribery happens. Why do you think the WTO ruled against Canadian drug patent laws?

Bribing of both cities and units has a basis in fact, but is unrealistic, because: HEY, it's a game!!! (Isn't it?)

- toby

I agree with you guys saying that city bribes are too cheap, but if it's not in the rules.txt what can we do about it?!?!

And Jim W has a point, it's not technically about going upto washington and saying here's 2k, now put up our flag mate!!!! It's more about expending money, to corrupt, trick, undermine, subervert and cajole the city officials around to your way of thinking!!

As pointed out, bribing cities was extensive in pre-modern era. In the modern era, bribing is just far more subtle.

Things could be improved of course. It should be impossible to bribe a Fundamentalist. It should be easy to bribe a democracy if and only if you are also a democracy.

It should be impossible to bribe large central cities of a nation you are at actively war with.

I think bribing units is just as acceptable as building a city on a mountain hex.

*cough* stirring things up again, are we, Horse?

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking on 05-11-2000 01:57 PM Bribing units and cities is terrific. As pointed out, bribing cities was extensive in pre-modern era. In the modern era, bribing is just far more subtle. Things could be improved of course. It should be impossible to bribe a Fundamentalist. It should be easy to bribe a democracy if and only if you are also a democracy.

I've edited the ToT ruleset to disallow bribing modern units except for mercenaries (a custom unit, cheap to build, not strong but usable, but subject to bribing). I agree, older units being subject to bribery makes a good deal of sense. But to expect that a modern tank division is going to be bought off doesn't sit well...

quote: It should be impossible to bribe large central cities of a nation you are at actively war with.

City bribery should be disallowed after a certain date/size...

quote: Originally posted by finbar on 05-30-2000 02:26 AM Justify how, Horse? You mean the logic (as per the real world)?

This from the person who was the first to bribe one of my ships!

and actually i sometimes have to pay 10000 golf for an engineer or something, now that's ridiculous!!

-African republics: a shipment of armaments to an ambitious colonel will suffice.
-Former Russian presidents: a few cases of fine vodka. Daily.
-Banana Republics: the amount of dollars that a CIA agent can carry in a briefcase.
-Switzerland: for gold, they'll turn a blind eye to anything.
-The chancellor of the worlds third largest economy: 30 million DM
-The president of the number one nation of this planet: a few fancy tricks with a cigar will do.

My question is, if you stack two ships, does that render them unbribeable?

quote: Originally posted by Mark von Wagner on 06-03-2000 12:37 AM Finbar, like you said, ships are just another unit.

Yeah right, name one ship that was bribed and changed sides in a war!

------------------
The Mad Monk

"The capacity of a grass leaf to grow from the sheath
at its base is a useful adaptation to herbivore grazing.
It has also resulted, over the eons, in the piteous
spectacle of thousands of hominids vibrating behind
their lawnmowers from spring to fall."

Subconsciously he obviously wants this thread to succeed. It could also be guilt of course for bribing my ships.